Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1155597232

Subject: Re: [DNA] Pict Test - Question for EA
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:13:52 EDT

In a message dated 8/14/2006 5:12:59 P.M. Central Standard Time,

What is unusual in that much of mid Down remained in
the hands of these two septs that are verifiably part
of the Ui Echach Cobha (Iveagh)grouping who are
generally classed in pseudo-ethnic terms as Cruithin.

There are at least a few annal entries which describe the Dal nAraidhe (and
hence the Ui Echach Cobha) as Cruithin:

665 FM
Maelcaeich, son of Scannal, chief of the Cruithne of Dal Araidhe of the race
of Ir, died;

Ulcha Dearg Redbeard Ua Caillidhe, one of the Conmaicne Cuile, was the
person that killed him. The battle of Rath Mor Maighe Line was gained over the
Britons, wherein were slain Cathasach, son of Maelduin, chief of the Cruithni
Dal Araidhe, and Ultan, son of Dicolla.

Cinaedh, son of Conchobhar, was slain at Magh Cobha, by the Cruithni of Dal

The O Clery Book of Genealogies only list 3 septs said to descend from the
Dal Araidhe.


The other surname you mention (Ua Lethlobhair) isn't included but the name
does occur in the pedigree of O Lynch.


1833. Donnchad m Aedha m Loingsigh m Mic Etich m Letlobhair m Loingsigh (o
ta an sloinnedh) m Tommoltaigh m Innrechtaigh m Leathlobhair m Echach
ierlaithe m Fiachna loscain m Baetain chaoich m Echach m Connla m Caelbaidh m Cruind
bhadrai m Eachach cobha.

Not all the I haplogroups in the Trinity spreadsheet were I1c. Here's an
old post from Patrick Guinness.

"We argue that it (I1c) is seen in their dynastic line with cousins
back to a man alive in 600AD, 2 centuries before the Vikings arrived.
The mutation rate suggests 1,500 years and the actual timeframe was
1,400 years.

There is some Viking I1a seen in Neesons and Magennises, probably
from war or the nearby trading post at Carlingford (Kaerlings-fjordr).

Certainly some I1c in Britain and Ireland must be 'Celts', Viking or
Anglo-Saxon, but at such a low level that it is hard to say."


"In other words, if the Ancient Briton dynaties were 'Celts', who
arrived after 1000BC, were the Picts perhaps aborigines? Or were they
also 'Celts'?

We've unmasked the Irish Cruthin dynasty to our satisfaction, and it
is mentioned in Brian McEvoy's recent paper in Human Genetics:
Brian McEvoy Daniel G. Bradley
Y chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames
Hum Genet (2005)
DOI 10.1007/s00439 005 0131 8

Some of the Irish dynastic Cruthin match the Galloway I1c as it
should, but Trinity College could only test in Ireland. You'll have
to wait for my forthcoming book 'The Irish Gene' to see the evidence.

Some Irish Cruthin areas / surnames show no I1c at all, so O'Rahilly
wasn't 100% accurate."

If he's still on the list maybe he can tell us something about his book.


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