Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1155857908

Subject: Re: [DNA] Dutch M222+?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:38:28 EDT

In a message dated 8/17/2006 5:33:35 A.M. Central Standard Time,

The Fortineux family lived in Otterberg, Germany from the 1670s - 1730s. The
patriarch was listed in one early church record as being from Lambrecht,
which is in the same area. They were Huguenots, so the geography of the
families you mentioned below is very interesting to me. I would like to
determine the place of origin in France. Do you think there would be value
in having one of my participants tested for M222? Thanks.

I would think so but I'm not sure what the DNA experts would say.

If you look at the STRs for Van Der Lee (RCQFK) he misses the Ui Neill modal
at nearly every conceivable point except for DYS 392 = 14. He also has the
modal DYS 389-2 = 29. But if you look at the list of M222+ the values at
this marker range from 29-31. I have to infer from this that a range of values
are allowed at this marker (and most others in the Ui Neill modal).

The other marker that every M222+ has in common in the Ui Neill modal is DYS
448=18. Here Van Der Lee has 19. Does that disqualify him as a possible
M222+ or will other values be found as more SNP tests or done?

Van Der Lee is also completely different at DYS 464 (15-15-17-17). But the
values at these markers differ greatly among the tested M222+.

I personally am inclined to think that the main criteria determining M222+
and therefore Ui Neill or NW Irish is simply DYS 392 = 14 or above (a few are

Tim Desmond came up with a very short Ui Neill haplotype that centers on
most of the Ui Neill key values that are shared by most M222+. (PB595). If you
want to try and use this you might allow at least a genetic distance of 1 to
find variant values at DYS 390 and DYS 385. This short haplotype has 25 and
13 at those markers.

6JJRE Fortineux Otterberg, Germany, France

Fortineux hits on some Ui Neill markers but misses at others - most notably
at DYS 385. (11-12). But he does have a 14 at DYS 392, 18-30 and DYS 464=

13 25 14 10 11 12 12 12 13 14 14 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17

Does this mean he cannot be Ui Neill or will likely text negative for

I have no idea. Maybe the DNA experts could chime in with their own
opinions. I'm just studying the M222+ tables and trying to get a grip on what is
allowed under M222+ at each marker and furthermore, what all M222+ have in

I would test a Fortineux with the above STRs for M222+. All you have to
lose is $80 or so.

I would really be interested in hearing from some of the DNA experts on
what they think about the variety of values in the M222+ tables at each marker
and what this means in terms of the Ui Neill or NW Irish modal and possible
M222 matches. If Van Der Lee is indeed M222+ positive that adds a little more
complexity to the current tables.

We already have one M222+ (YS9J6 Larkin Tipperary, Ireland) who also misses
the Ui Neill or NW Irish modal at nearly every conceivable marker.

13 26 14 10 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 28 15 15 16 17

All he has that matches the complete modal is DYS 392=14 and DYS 448=18.

If you looked at this you probably wouldn't believe he was Ui Neill or NW

I'm not saying this to be provocative or contrary. I simply don't
understand what I'm seeing in the M222+ tables.


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