Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1155977764

Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: The search for Dalriadan genes-futile?
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:56:04 -0700
In-Reply-To: <>

John & interested parties:

Interesting enough, each of the O'Donnell & the O'Neill Clans had distinct
O'Mulligan septs:

1. O'Mulligan of Tir Mac Carthan, sept of the O'Donnells.

2. O'Mulligan of Cineal Moen, sept of the O'Neills.

Years ago, Milligan researchers were thinking that somehow members of one of
these two septs made their way to Galloway. Eventually, that idea became a
little too far-fetched (we thought).

Then we found evidence that seemed to point toward the origins of the SW
Scotland Milligans in a blend of Strathclyde Briton & Gaelic-speaking
immigrants (possibly Gall-gaels who flourished with the coming of Fergus,
Lord of Galloway (sometimes described as Irish-Norse). Macrath ap Molegan of
the 1296 Ragman Roll of landholders in Scotland, demanded by King Edward I,
as Overlord of Scotland. Then, a few years ago Alan Milliken of Scotland
found mention of a "Malgon" as a witness to a land grant by the Edgar chief
( descended from the long time Briton rulers of the area descended from Owen
the Bald) to the clergy of Morton Church in Nithsdale, Dumfriesshire.
Hence, we were thinking that the Milligan were a mix of Briton & Gallgael
who merged in Galloway.

We don't think that a branch of the NW Irish with the name O'Mulligan moved
into Galloway from Co. Donegal & created the Milligans of SW Scotland.
However, it is kinda amusing that our Milligan ancestors are of Ui
Neill-related DNA. Almost back to where we started 45 years ago with the
help of DNA!

I don't think the Milligans are direct descendants of Niall of the 9, but
rather more likely we are descendants of one of the ancestors of Niall, so
more like cousins.

Very difficult to feel confidence in the idea that the Ui Neill & affiliates
are relatively recent immigrants to Ireland, but can't be ruled out at this
point. As you say, we need the dna experts to figure out where M222+

Had not thought of your idea about being pre-Roman in Scotland & England,
then spreading into Ireland!

What is your take on the Vennicinii Tribe in Mid-Donegal? Could they be
pre-Ui-Neill residents of NW Ireland, or could they be the Ui-Neill with a
more ancient name & origins in Ireland or elsewhere? Have also noticed a
Tribe in central Scotland with a name similar to the Vennicini. Have you
looked at them? Thanks, Don M

Don Milligan
3003 South 253rd Street
Kent, WA 98032
253 941-0514

>Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: The search for Dalriadan genes-futile?
>Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:11:12 EDT
>In a message dated 8/18/2006 10:43:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>So, now thanks to DNA, after we received the "Ui Neill Shock" of
>our lives, we are still trying to piece all this together! How did our
>Ui-Neill affiliated ancestors in very early NW Ireland find ourselfves in
>the middle of Strathclyde Briton territory by 1180?
>That's an answer I'd like to find too. Are they direct descendants of
>of some kind (post 400 AD)? Or part of the same general tribe? (pre-400
> When and how did they come to be in Galloway? We know nothing of the Ui
>Neill prior to 400 AD. except what O Rahilly and Byrnes tell us. O
>Rahilly say
>they were a Gaulish tribe who came to Ireland as late as 50 BC. landed
>Dublin and established a kingdom in northern Leinster (Meath). Brynes
>they were first in Connacht and then spread into Meath and NW Ireland.
>Whatever scenario you follow they weren't in NW Ireland until post 400 AD.
>According to the Irish historians those kingdoms were founded by sons of
>Nial and
>wrested away from the original inhabitants.
> Of course current DNA theory has them originating in Ireland and not
>migrating from Gaul. And they say the DNA signature is extremely old,
>before the time of Nial (thousands of years). If so then the DNA could
>spread from Ireland to Scotland and northern England well before the time
>of Nial
>and could even be pre-Roman in those areas.
> What might it mean if M222+ originated in Gaul or Spain or at least on
>continent and the genes moved westward from there into Scotland, northern
>England and lastly Ireland? That would be an entirely different scenario.
> We
>have ample evidence in Ptolemy's map of migrations of tribes from Gaul
>Britain and Ireland.
> I don't think we'll ever get any answers to these questions until the
>experts figure out where M222+ originated. Was it in Ireland or on the
>Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
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