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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1156702328


From: Sam Vass <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] RE: R1b1* -was My cousin and I are both out of range
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:12:08 -0700


Ellen, like most of us, I have looked at the literature for locations
and migrations of my rare haplogroup and searched the public dna
databases for near matches..

Remember that I am C27F2 at ysearch, have about 15 known near matches
of Eastern European Jews, and we are all R1b1* as I have been SNP
tested R1b1* by EA and two others were confirmed by FTDNA.

25 Aug 2006 Ellen Levy wrote
<<What is a Nestorian exile? >>

I did a survey of the literature and found only one Eastern Asian
group identified as R1b. That survey is documented in a letter that
I sent to this list on 22 May 2006 with the subject: R1b in [East
Asia & C2MUB?

One interesting statement was in the following:
“Paternal Population History of East Asia: Sources, Patterns, and
Microevolutionary Processes”, 2002, Hammer et alii Table 1 lists
R1b1 (H44) at
2 of 54 Hui males, 12 of 68 Uighur males and 5 of 13 Kirghiz.
....
From Wikipedia: ...”Northern Huis, whose ethnogenesis might be a
result of the
convergence of large number of Mongol, Turkic or other Central Asian
settlers in
these regions who formed the dominant stratum in the Mongol Yuan
Dynasty. It
was documented that a proportion of these nomad or military ethnic
groups were
originally Nestorian Christians many of whom later converted to
Islam...” (Note
that Nestorius lived in Antioch, now in Syria and his followers were
given
sanctuary in Persia in 462 AD.)

C2MUB at ysearch, listed as Mongolian noble family line from Ulan
Bator (capitol
of Mongolia), is one mutation distant out of nine markers from nine R1b
Ashkenazim including myself, C27F2 and a perfect match for five Jews
from the
Ukraine and Hungary. He has an 11 at DYS425. (Note that I have been
tested positive for P25 and negative for M18, M73, and M269.) We
also have a 5 of 6 match with the first entry of Table A1 of “The Y
Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the
Middle East”, 2001, Nebel et alii, an Iraqi “Sephardic” Jew.)

YHRD also has an Altaic Mongol who is also a close match.
nub of response from Gareth: Alternatively you or one of the other
R1b1s could test for DYS425 (or DYF371 which includes DYS425). If
you get an 11 this would also be (imo) very strong evidence of a link.

<<Also, why the suspicion that the Basque is a possible converso? Do
you have any matches within the Sephardic population?>>

The Basque descendant (Arellano in SMGF) matches 25 of 32 including
DYS464 and YCA being exact. He also measures 27 at DYS447. The
frequency tables for R1b1(c) individuals show the rarity of these
results. Seven numbers would be one more than the Cohen Modal
Haplotype uses.

http://www.sephardim.com/namelist.shtml?
mode=form&from=A&to=C&Search=Search
Alvarez de Arellano (Also see Alveres de Arellano)(23)
23) From the book, "Secrecy and Deceit: The Religion of theCrypto-
Jews", by David Gitlitz. The names of the Sephardim (and their
residences) mentioned were, sometimes, involved with the inquisition.
There were other names which are not listed here because the author
did not identify those names as Sephardic.(~)

<<Also, what is the importance of the origins of the Uldeme tribe
being prior to "the Exodus"? I take this to mean you are referring
to the Biblical account of the Israelite escape from slavery in
Egypt? (Please note that I have no intention here initiating a
discussion concerning the historical accuracy of this account). >>

<<Is the implication of your statement that the Eastern European
Ashkenazi R1b1* haplotype is in fact Israelite in origin and
ultimately traceable back to a time of bondage in Egypt? Or am I
simply reading too much into your statements? >>

My R1b1* haplogroup was identified in 21 of 23 males of the Ouldeme
tribe and nowhere else in Africa (except for a possible group in
Southern Egypt).

A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-
Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes, 2002 by
Cruciani et. al. has been discussed on this list by Gareth and
others. Type 117 is R1b1* and Type 117b is R1b1c. From the
conclusions:
“It is quite reasonable to hypothesize that an ancient Asian gene
pool was the source of both the European (haplotype 117b) and
Cameroonian (haplotype 117) M173 chromosomes. The fact that haplotype
117 is rare or absent in Asia (P.A.U., unpublished data) or the
Middle East (present study), suggests that a large portion of its
microsatellite diversity in Cameroon accumulated within the African
continent after the proposed back-migration event, probably as a
consequence of a population expansion. The coalescence age of the
African haplotype 117, which we estimated as 4,100 years (95% CI
2,400–8,060 years)”

It should also be noted that they found the YCAii pair for the
Ouldeme to be 21-23 in an earlier study which is identical to my
group and not shared by the R1b1c listed by Kerchner.

On 28 June 2006, I provided a summary outline of their known history
to the list with the subject: R1b, Cameroon history, and blond
cannibals?
<<Is the implication of your statement that the Eastern European
Ashkenazi R1b1* haplotype is in fact Israelite in origin and
ultimately traceable back to a time of bondage in Egypt? Or am I
simply reading too much into your statements? >>

Maybe my attempted humorous comment should be taken as my opinion of
the existence of my haplogroup in the region long ago and that the
current categories have little relationship to those of long ago.
This idea that the current geographic density of haplotypes is
identical to an ancient ratio has been the subject of many letters to
this digest. Yes, I believe that my group clearly existed then as
demonstrated in the studies cited and the only question is where.
Distant relatives of mine must have been in or near Israel possibly
before there was an Israel just as they were in Iberia later. I make
no claim that my direct ancestors were in any particular place.

--- Sam Vass wrote: I am often erroneously compared with R1b1c
persons. My "cousins" and I can be distinguished from R1b1c by our
values of 21-23 at YCA ii a&b, 12, 12, 15, 15 at DYS464, and
possibly 11 at DYS425 in addition to our positive SNP test for P25
and negative tests for M18, M73, and M269 with my values as the
first entry in
> the noted McEwan R1b SNP list. Most of my cousins have chosen
not to enter their data
> at ysearch; but, some can be found in the FTDNA groups for Jewish
dna and Jewish R1b dna. We (about 15 surnames) are all of Eastern
European Jewish ancestry. We have a few potential matches such a
descendant from a Mongolian noble line (a Persan trader son of a
Nestorian exile?), a Basque from Navarre (a converso?), and the (O)
uldeme tribe/clan in Northern Cameroon founded before(?) the era of
the Exodus. > Sam Vass


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