GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1156885003
Subject: Re: [GENEALOGY-DNA] [DNA] RE R1b1* -was My cousin and I are bothout of range
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:56:43 +0000
<<29 Aug 2006 Ellen Levy wrote: I cannot claim to know a lot about R1b sub-clades; hence, the questions I am asking.>>
Several members of the list wrote about my haplotype measurements when they were first published. Below is a fair summary from one of them.
I think testing M269 should be the first step as this could possibly be a rare example of a non-European P25+. It is definitely unlike any "Atlantic" haplotype. ...Since P25+ M269- is found in Africa (Cameroon) as well as Asia this could be a very deep split (pre-Ice Age?) somewhere in the middle east? On the other hand a M269+ result would bring the date of divergence forward and locate it possibly in eastern Europe during the Ice Age. Almost certainly earlier than the split off of S21 from the main "Atlantic" group. The DYS464 results (12-12-15-15) are very un-R1b(M269+). I suspect this would have the ancestral 4g form on the DYS464X test. Gareth Henson (November 2005)
I was found to be negative for M269 as well as M18 and M73 and to have the ancestral form of DYS464. See the y DNA tree at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html which identifies five specified mutually exclusive subclades for R1b1. One is the precursor R1b1* itself, followed by the four subgroups, labelled as a, b, c, and d. The third group, R1b1c, is currently argued to have had some individuals overwinter in Iberia and then spread out after the ice age into Western Europe. Some of these are claimed to have converted and admixed into the Jewish population. The precursor [R1b1*] and all of the subgroups are believed to have originated in Asia and survived there as they are all currently found in Asia. Thus, my Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor with the western Europeans is about 15 thousand years and my precursor haplogroup is the admixture for Europeans and not the other way around.
>From my originating email
<<We (about 15 surnames) are all of Eastern European Jewish ancestry. We have a few potential matches such a descendant from a Mongolian noble line (a Persan trader son of a Nestorian exile?), a Basque from Navarre (a converso?), and the (O)uldeme tribe/clan in Northern Cameroon founded before(?) the era of the Exodus. >
Please note the use of the term potential matches and the use of question marks. (I am trained as an engineer and have written performance specifications for contracts. I try to
use appropriate language and mean both exactly and only what I say.)
<<You stated that your potential match is a descendant of a "Mongolian noble line." What does "noble line" mean? Also, does this person confirm any known Muslim background to lead you think he is originally of Nestorian Christian background? Does he confirm belonging to the Northern Hui ethnic group?
Apparently, there are other Mongolians that may also be R1b1* with a similar haplotype, as indicated by your YHRD search. According to the quote about the Northern Hui, they are an intermixture of Mongol, Turkic and Central Asian peoples. What is the known frequency of R1b1* among Turks? Central Asians? Eastern Europeans, particularly Russians? How about
other Basque or peoples in Spain? Can one assume that the R1b1 listed by Hammer in the 2002 article is R1b1* and is thus found among Uighur and Kirghiz males in fairly high frequency as well?>>
In answer to your questions,I found no identifiable R1b1* people other than the potential ones that I list. The Mongol is self identified in ysearch at C2MUB as of Mongolian nobility. He has chosen not to respond to my query at ysearch.
Cinnioglu found 2 R1b1*, 4 R1b1b, 62, R1b1c, and 1 R1b1d in Anatolia when testing 523 males. By the way, R1b1* is rare to absent among most populations although the cited Cameroon paper suggests that a similar R1b1* group may have been found in Southern Egypt which was the location of the old capitol.
<<Sam, I assume you have not found a Sephardic link here? ...It would appear that your analysis attributes the Basque R1b1* ancestor to one of Jewish origin rather than the other way around? But what is the evidence supporting this conclusion?>>
Arellano is self-identified as the descendant of a Spanish soldier currently living in New Mexico in the US. He appears to be a distant match (25 of 32 markers including some key identifiers) and his ultimate origin is most likely not from the Iberia refuge. I drew no other conclusion.
<<You mention the Hyksos as invading Egypt. Is the suggestion then that they are the one's responsible for bringing R1b1* to Cameroon?...>>
The Hyksos comment was an unattributed citation. Yes, James Breasted originally published his history of Egypt in 1905 and yes, he thought that the Egyptians invented all of civilization and yes, he was probably not a fan of the Jews. No, I was not suggesting anything except the time frame and the blond cannibal reference was identified as the repetition of a quotation from the anthropologist dealing with the mountain tribe in Northern Cameroon. Local legends are interesting but not probative.
With that segue, one amateur genealogist (whom I believe is the founder of the Hungarian SIG of JewishGen and whose grandfather is a direct y DNA descendant of one of my matches direct male ancestors) has told me that he was told long ago by a rabbi in Israel that this line came from five brothers who came to Hungary from Germany around 1700. My own father (born 1901 in Budapest) said that his understanding is that our ancestor (and that of most other Jews in Hungary) came from Alsace after the Ottomans relinquished control. My uncle, noting that our family surname was once WEIL, says that we are direct descendants of the man who took his name from Weil der Stadt, Yehuda and was born either in Spain or Freiburg (in 1360 per Werner Frank). The Jewish Encyclopedia (1903) states that the Jews in the particular county (Trenscen) of my ancestors came mainly from Prague after the passage of the Familiant Laws circa 1750. The Ui Niall people have nothing on my family for m!