Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-08 > 1156903505

From: "brian quinn" <>
Subject: Re: [GENEALOGY-DNA] [DNA] Variances of Isles R1b Varieties +Frisian R1b
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:05:05 +1000
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Thanks to Alan Foster for explaining this stuff to me after I got it all
back to front.

Anyway I have a problem with the South Irish or Type III being same as one
of the Basque groups.

It suggests that South Irish left the Iberia/Aquitaine area after the Last
Ice Age and that they met groups in Ireland/Britain/Scotland that had come
from the eastern R1b areas- the Northern Irish/Scots R1b. So maybe the Irish
British R1b groups show multiple source/refuge areas and multiple origin

Brian Quinn

>>> A. DYS390,391,392,385 = 25/11/14/11-13 North Irish R1b
>>> B. DYS390,391,385 = 24/10/11-15 South Irish R1b
>>> C. DYS390,391,YCA = 24/10/19-24 Scot R1b
>> D. DYS 390,391,447,H4 = 23/11/24/10 Frisian R1b
>> Each of these varieties has a number of additional unique modals
>> identifying it in SMGF; only abbreviated set of markers are shown above
>> with nicknames.
>>> Theory indicates the variances should be in ratio to the ages back to
>>> the effective founders of the populations. Here are the sum of 25
>>> marker variances for each.
>>> A. 4.32
>>> B. 2.79
>>> C. 4.67
>> D. 5.16
>>> As a comparison/calibration I used the same 25 markers to find the
>>> variances for the whole Atlantic R1b population in SMGF. Atlantic R1b
>>> Variance = 6.93

-----Original Message-----
From: afc700 . [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, 28 August 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: [DNA] Variances of Isles R1b Varieties + Frisian R1b

Alan R./List
Is the data concrete? Virtually all the data i examined was from Yhrd in
2004, in total over 4,000 haplotypes. The methodology i used is explained
in the paper i wrote. For those who want to read it, it can be accessed via
Terry Barton's WorldFamilies site, or through EthnoAncestry's site.

My data showed the allele values for R1b's DYS390 in Iberia to have only
half the diversity of those for DYS390 in eastern Europe. The conclusions
are clear: R1b in eastern Europe is either twice as old, or it is descended

from a "separate" subgroup of R1b. In neither case could eastern R1b be
descended from Iberian R1b.

Specifically, my data showed the likelihood of four subgroups of R1b:
Russian/Baltic; Baltic/NorthSea; Alpine/SouthGerman and Iberian/Atlantic.

Within the last twelve months or so, EthnoAncestry has discovered its
R1b/S21+ SNP which fits in pretty well with the concept of a Baltic/NorthSea

R1b subgroup; and also its R1b/S28+ which fits in pretty well with the
notion of a separate Alpine/SouthGerman group.

I predict that eventually there will be confirmation of a Russian/Baltic R1b

group, and that it will probably be modal at DYS390=25.

Interpolation of my data predicted the maximum diversity of R1b in Europe to

occur in the region of the Volga river in Russia, at about 55 degrees
North;50 East.

For the record, my research was prompted by the publication by Ken
Nordtvedt, in about June 2004, that he had identified the (R1b) combination
of DYS390=23 and DYS391=11 as being improbably high in his "Greater Frisia"
area; and to a lesser extent, and a shade later, a report from David Faux
that in a survey of about 30 "Germanic" R1b haplotypes, he had found them to

be modal at DYS390=23.

My own category is R1b/S21+/S29+. Based on my own research, with very
limited data, S29+ seems possibly to have originated, post-IceAge, as a
subgroup of S21+, in the Baltic/German area of Flensburg, Kiel, Luebeck,
Rostock and Greifswald. This region was the eastern part of the land
inhabited by the Angles before their migration to Angle (Eng) land during
the 5th and 6th centuries AD.
Alan Foster.

Previous message......... -Message: #14
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:37:33 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan R <>
To: >
Subject: Re: Fw: [DNA] Variances of Isles R1b Varieties + Frisian R1b

............. would place the refugias in
south-west France and Northern Iberia and these areas
....should theoretically have the greatest
variation. I understand that one Alan Foster has
produced variation stats that do not at all support
this notion. This is a big problem. Is this data


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