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From: "R. & G. Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:56:09 -0400
References: <a06110407c1387adc2f1f@[216.187.1.203]><004d01c6dddc$4321a5a0$640fa8c0@Villandra2><CB03CFEC-0EE8-4D4C-8568-9E068AA982C1@vizachero.com><007401c6dde1$7b2b6760$640fa8c0@Villandra2><003901c6df1b$61e69410$6401a8c0@Richard><003001c6dfe3$5671b2e0$640fa8c0@Villandra2><000601c6dfec$3ba87710$6401a8c0@Richard><002301c6dfef$3f46f330$6400a8c0@Ken1>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R. & G. Stevens" <>
>
>
>> It seems likely to me, and to a growing number of other people, that the
>> indigenous natives of Western Europe belonged to y-haplogroups other than
>> R1b, whose bearers moved in from the East sometime in the Neolithic
>> Period
>> or Bronze Age and largely replaced them.
>
>
> Those actual indigenous
>> y-haplogroups may be largely extinct now in Europe or they may still
>> exist
>> as vestigial, minority y-haplogroups.
>
>
> That seems a rather wild speculation, with understandably no evidence
> concerning it. Other than the plausability that the range of N3 in Europe
> may have been cut back substantially in recent millenia by expanding R1a,
> old I1b, I1a, even R1b, what are candidates for the vestigial, minority
> ydna
> types of Europe which once (paleolithic?)were dominant?
>
> Ken
_____________________________________________________________________

I don't know, Ken, but I don't think what I posted is any wilder than
supposing that R1b has always been where it is now just because there is a
lot of it there.

There is no evidence that R1b is indigenous to Western Europe other than
there is a lot of it there now - no y-dna garnered from Cro-Magnon or even
pre-Celtic remains.

On the other hand, it is true that in the late Neolithic and early Bronze
Ages many prehistoric settlement sites were abandoned, some burned, and
fortifications began to appear. Burial rites changed, the human physical
remains changed, and pottery and artifacts from Central Europe began to
appear. These facts have led many historians and archaeologists to support
the traditional idea that the Indo-European Celts arrived in the West as
invaders.

In what is now Northwestern China, the Indo-European Tocharians spoke a
centum (Western) Indo-European language with certain Celtic affinities (but
not itself Celtic). The Uyghurs, who claim descent from the Tocharians, have
a high proportion of R1b and R1a.

I see more reason to see the R1bs as relatively late arrivals in Western
Europe than to see them as the indigenous aborigines who somehow managed to
outbreed all the various "elites" who managed to impose their language and
culture on them while simultaneously failing to compete with them at
producing sons.

Rich

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