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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159120766


From: "Lowe DNA" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b - out of Africa not Europe
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:59:26 -0500
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F3605A7591028E739EB1E7BCC270@phx.gbl>


Steve..

Good email discussion...

Perhaps the DNA testing companies should participate in this discussion as
my E3b Stephens and Stevens men haven't a clue about their ancestors
movements from Africa into Europe. Mapping some of the E3b sub-clade
migrations also would help surname coordinators.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:]On Behalf Of Steven Bird
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:16 PM
To:
Subject: [DNA] E3b - out of Africa not Europe


Dora,

Earlier, you wrote:

>
>Original Balkans weren't Indo-Europeans, that was one of the refuges of the
>peoples of Europe during the last ice age! They'd have mixed it up with
>Indo-Europeans on their way northward.
>
>Though I suppose it would be interesting to look at the notion that some
>subset of the people who sheltered in the Balkans during the ice age
>eventually sprouted the trait for blonde hair.


Go to this webpage:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.web.p
df#search=%22cruciani%202004%20E3b%22

You'll find an on-line PDF copy of Cruciani's ground-breaking 2004 paper,
which effectively defined E3b as having four clusters (alpha, bet, gamma,
delta). It also traced the movement of haplogroup E3b(alpha) out of Africa
to the Balkans. E3b(beta) is associated with northwest Africa and E3b
(delta) is associated with northeastern African populations (Somali in
particular). All of the E3b subclades came out of Africa originally,
according to the genetic evidence. It is not found by Cruciani, et al, that
they migrated from Europe.

There are other Balkan clades that did migrate from Europe, but during later
historical periods. These would include some Celts (including the
Galatians), many of the eastern Black Sea tribes (Cimmerians/Sarmatians,
etc.), and certainly many Slavic peoples, especially after 400 A.D.

As I previously stated, I believe that the E3b(alpha) subclade may be
treated as congruent with the indigeneous people of the Balkans. Based on
recent archaeological finds in the Balkans, Christopher Webber has stated in
his book "The Thracians" (in 2001) that the Thracians occupied the Balkan
peninsula (essentially, all of it) in the 7th millenium, B.C., or about
9,000 years ago. To me that is the same as saying that they were the
original Neolithic settlers. They were later pushed to the north and east
by other groups entering the region, particularly the early Greeks and the
Illyrians.

Dienekes Pontikos stated on his blog in August 2005:

[Begin Quote]

We observe the two main "contrasts" in the data between "coastal" J2/R1b and
"continental" I1b and between "Neolithic" E3b and "Slavic" R1a (*)

Several conclusions can be drawn.

The spread of the Neolithic economy into continental Europe involved E3b
bearers in a riverine expansion whose northern expression is associated with
the Linearbandkeramik. This does not mean that E3b was the only haplogroup
associated with these early European farmers, only that it definitely seems
to correlate better with this movement compared to the other Neolithic
haplogroup (J2).

The early diffusion of E3b occurred over a haplogroup I Paleolithic
background. It is likely that as groups moved northward the frequency of
haplogroup E3b abated, and this is in fact shown in the frequency
distribution. This movement is probably associated with the narrow-faced
Danubian Mediterranean racial types. [N.B. - this would appear to
correspond exactly with the Getic/Dacian tribe, which was the northernmost
Thracian tribe according to Webber.]

This native European population later received an influx of R1a speakers;
the frequency of R1a is correlated with latitude. This led to a decrease of
the native component in favor of the foreign R1a component. [N.B. - Bulgars
and Slavs in the 400 A.D. and later periods.]

The frequency of haplogroup J2 was established by three movements: (i) the
initial arrival of J2 from Asia Minor; this did not significantly penetrate
into the Western Balkans; (ii) the initial dispersal of J2 into Italy and
further west, and around the Black Sea in pre-Greek times, which may be
associated with the arrival of gracile Mediterranean racial types into the
Ukraine; (iii) the latter dispersal of additional J2 as a result of Greek
colonization.

[end of Dienekes' quote]

I haven't seen any published archaeological or genetic evidence (yet)
showing any identification of settlers prior to the Neolithic. So absent
this evidence, the Thracian/Dacian tribes would appear to be the
''indigenous" people of the Balkans. Maybe someone on this list knows of
evidence to the contrary and can provide a reference?

Steve





No, they were the tribe known as the Getai and were described by
contemporary writers as blond. See earlier posts.

Steve



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