GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-10 > 1159975880


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b1c4, M153+ in Europe?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:31:20 -0600
References: <000101c6e7c3$91aeaa60$afc9e804@DW>


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilson" <>

> I think Ken is on to a real possibility for another SNP identification
> with
> this 14/18/10 cluster at 437/448/H4. It would be great if a few of the
> people with this pattern (or patterns near it) would order deep clade
> tests.
>
>
> Rambling through the public data bases for different FTDNA pages, I saw a
> few 14/18 haplotypes with H4=11 (FTDNA convention). Ken, do you think that
> variation represents a subcluster, or is it just noise?


In the two main databases there were 5 times as many haplotypes with H4 =
10(FTDNA) than 11, when 437,448 were 14,18. I think it safer to keep the H4
criterion for initial study of the variety, for two reasons. H4 = 11(FTDNA)
is the modal for all of R1b, and 448 = 18 is a modal shift also shared by
the robust NW Irish R1b, so more sophisticated filtering would be needed if
the H4 = 11 haplotypes were considered in the R1b-NS. This is not to say
that eventually one might not want and need to make judgments about
borderline cases. When trying to map out all the properties of a variety,
there is little harm in being too restrictive --- you mainly just lose some
of your bonified population. Being too liberal on the other hand allows
infiltrators who just don't belong in the descendant population and screw up
perceived properties. That's why I reject using democratic GD as a
criterion for membership in an interesting population; heavier weight must
be given to the slow mutating markers.

But I second what you said above --- it would be great if those with an R1b
haplotype having motif 14,18,10(FTDNA) at DYS437,448,H4 would test for SNP
M153.

I went through 40 haplotypes in Ymatch last night which in their stated SNP
test results included M153-, and not one had the above motif.

Ken


This thread: