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From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Galloway-NW Irish
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:02:30 -0300
References: <000001c6e5f2$fdf1b3c0$4101a8c0@BigMem2>


> However, the rain on the parade is the distribution of R1b haplotypes
> and what little we can accept as given facts. If they "were basically
> the same people" going back thousands of years we would expect the same
> distribution of haplotypes in North East Ireland and Argyll. This should
> hold especially R1b, which most accept is likely to have been the
> predominant haplotype when the region was repopulated after the LGM.
>
> However, based on STR haplotype clustering and SNPs this is not the
> case. The level of R1bSTR47Scots is markedly (manyfold) lower in Ireland
> and on the converse R1bSTR19Irish aka M222+ is higher than the rest of
> Britain, but is still markedly lower in Western Scotland than Ireland.
> This has been discussed on the list many times. Other less well studied
> groups also contribute to the picture. See

I tried replying to this a few days ago and it did not
appear to go through so I will try to outline my
thoughts again (at least time has given me the
chance to be clearer).

John you are going on some assumptions that one has to
be careful about: 1) that today's DNA is completely
reflective of 1600 years ago 2) that the NW Irish variety
is reflective of NE Ireland 3) that the Scots variety
distibution in Scotland today should compare with NE
Ireland and 4) that the Y-DNA makeup of NE Ireland and
western Scotland should be mainly either the NW Irish
or Scots variety.

In terms of numbers one and three the Ulster plantation
greatly replaced NE Irish with English and SW-Central
Scots. People from Kintyre/Argyll were specifically
excluded for most of the plantation period.

With regards to number two the history of the NE
Irish is not the same as the NW Irish. The pattern of
settlement for NE Ireland is Irish Sea based.

With regards to number four the NW Irish variety and
Scots variety are just two small sub sets of the R1b
population. We still have no real idea what the mix
of R1bs was for the Dal Riata, Dal nAraidi, Picts,
Strathclyde British, etc. Without that firm DNA
evidence how can one say that the two sides of the
Irish Sea weren't the same based on NW Irish and
Scots variety alone? Until we get "conclusive DNA
evidence" we are thrown onto archaeological evidence
which shows commonality the two side of the Irish Sea
in the vicinity of NE Ireland.

I can appreciate your passion for farming as a factor but
land tenure in Ireland, etc. before the 1800s was
totally different from today. There was not as much
attachment to the land because tenure was not secure and
brief. This contributed to the famines in the 1800s because
people were not willing to improve their holdings above what
they had to because they would likely lose it to someone
else. What went well for the tenants was that it was sometimes
an expensive process to remove them.

Best wishes!

Peter

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