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From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b's in England - a followup surprise
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:31:32 -0500
References: <BAY105-F35EE8406606FFACE059400CC160@phx.gbl>


That web site on the Border Reivers' DNA says that the E3b haplogroup was
carried by Romans, and also by Jews. Your findings are consistent with
that.

It sounds like more than likely you have seen it, but I'm checking. He
actually has a complete breakdown of the 17 or so subtypes of the E3b
haplogroup.

I was looking at it carefully again yesterday because I somehow got
something wrong, and Marin Boucher doesn't have markers that exactly match a
specifically Jewish subtype; actually it's one off from each of three of
them.

In fact, get ready for this - here is Marin Boucher's markers.

13 13 30 25 10 11 13 16 18

Well, not quite. Your modal result is 13 13 30 24 10 11 13 16 18, which
according to the Border Reiver site, is the e3b2 subtype that has been
discussed so much.

The other two subtypes that are close are:

# 17: 13 13 30 25 10 11 13 16 19, and # 15: 13 13 31 25 10 11 13 16 18.

Do the last two mutate more quickly than the others, such that if Marin
Boucher exactly matches none of them and he and several generations of
cousins of the same surname were in the Perche region of France, between
Paris and southern Normandy, then he is more likely subtype 17?

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Bird" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:32 AM
Subject: [DNA] E3b's in England - a followup surprise


> After calculating modal values for the haplotypes of those E3b's that
> could
> be definitely traced by conventional genealogy to England before 1642
> (calculated by using McGee's Y DNA utility macro) I compared the resulting
> modal allele values with various haplotypes found at YHRD and found good
> agreement with haplotypes found in Albania, Macedonia, Thrace-Greece, and
> parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina including Sarajevo. This would seem to
> indicate, as expected, a Balkan origin for this modal. This assumption
> was
> strengthened by the nearly complete absence of the same modal in other
> parts
> of the world, except for a few isolated locations in Italy.
>
> Then I decided to compare all unique E3b haplotypes presently found at
> YSearch that were self-identified as British, regardless of how recently
> the
> most distant ancestor was or whether there was any knowledge of origins
> beyond being from Britain.
>
> Surprise! The modal result was exactly the same (YHRD order):
>
> DYS19=13
> 389i=13
> 389ii=30
> 390=24
> 391=10
> 392=11
> 393=13
> 385a,b=16,18
>
> I was most surprised by the lack of a change in 385a,b. This allele seems
> to be the most variable in the minimal haplotype given above. I thought
> it
> would budge.
>
> This modal calculation conforms again to a Balkan origin for the
> haplotype.
> It does suggest, though, that the British E3b population modal has been
> roughly the same for at least 400 years. This means, I think, that
> immigration later than 1642 did not materially affect the distribution of
> haplotypes within E3b in Britain. If true, that would narrow the field of
> possible immigration periods considerably, to Neolithic, Roman or Norman
> immigrations.
>
> There were 85 unique, self-identified "British" haplotypes listed in the
> E3b
> section of YSearch. Could this similarity of the modals be a statistical
> artifact of McGee's utility or does it reflect a true genetic continuity
> between the two populations being compared? (Pre-1642 English vs. modern
> Brits)
>
> Steve Bird
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Steven Bird, DMA
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
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