GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-11 > 1162418266


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:57:46 -0700
References: <BAY122-F2817306D7D637AAB09BC95DAF80@phx.gbl>


We don't have enough I1a data geographically tied to southern Germany,
Switzerland, and environs compared to more northerly areas to do variance
measurements, for what they are worth. I base my guess on where one finds
most of I1a in Europe. But as I said, I have no strong opinion on where I1a
was founded; I'm trying to find the evidence that will give us clues. The
academic papers in my view clutch at straws with opinions generally going
way beyond their gathered evidence.

Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums



>From this it seems then to me that new I1b* may have took refuge in the
Balkans. It may not have but from what you have mentioned here it seems like
a good possibility. On what do you base your guess that I1a possibly
originated in the Danube Basin, the Alps or the Balkans? Haplotype variance?


Jackson


>From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
>Reply-To:
>To: <>
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:25:39 -0700
>
>The old I1* = new I1b* haplotypes (not I1a, not old I1c, not old I1b, not
>old I1(x)) haplotypes are showing up primarily from Greece, Italy, Eastern
>Europe, Switzerland, and even Georgia. So you figure. I have no strong
>opinion; my goal is to find out with solid evidence, but if I had to guess
>I'd say I1a originated in middle Danube basin, or the Alps region, or the
>Balkans. I see nothing supportive to the Iberian theory as primary source
>for haplogroup I repopulation of Europe, except possibly old I1b2 which
>incidently is decently found in Italy.
>
>Ken
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 2:06 PM
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
>
>
> >
> > Ok, so where do you think haplogroup I or it's subclades spent the LGM?
> >
> >
> >
> > Jackson
> >
> >
> >>From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
> >>Reply-To:
> >>To: <>
> >>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
> >>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:00:57 -0700
> >>
> >>Look at Rootsi et al "evidence" for putting I1a in Iberia during the
>LGM.
> >>It's rather thin, based on only a handful of haplotypes and very uneven
> >>coverage of northwestern Europe in their database. Your other source
>says
> >>I1a is paleolithic. I guess if you bring the paleolithic up fairly
>close
> >>to
> >>the present that could be so, but I1a is probably younger than 10,000
> >>years.
> >>
> >>I have not done the count, but I suspect there is more (old) I1b2 in
> >>Iberia
> >>and Sardinia than I1a, yet people put the (old) I1b refuge in the
>Balkans.
> >>(old) I1b2 is of course a subclade of (old) I1b. (old) I1b also may not
> >>need a LGM refuge, and the same with (old) I1c. These three clades have
> >>age
> >>estimates all over the park, and they could very well be post-LGM in
>their
> >>foundings.
> >>
> >>Ken
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni" <>
> >>To: <>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 1:28 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I have read that here
> >> >
> >>http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_i1a_part_1.htm
> >> >
> >> > And here
> >>http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181996
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The genographic project also seems to say that I1a took shelter in
> >>Iberia
> >> > during the ice age. This just what I have read, thats all.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Jackson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
> >> >>Reply-To:
> >> >>To: <>
> >> >>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
> >> >>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:21:41 -0700
> >> >>
> >> >>What possible reason do you have to believe I1a came from the Iberian
> >>LGM
> >> >>refuge?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>----- Original Message -----
> >> >>From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni" <>
> >> >>
> >> >> >From what I have recently been reading it seems to me that R1b1c*
> >>M269+
> >> >>but
> >> >>S21- and S28- spent the last ice age in Iberia along with I1a and
> >>possibly
> >> >>I1c.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
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