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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-11 > 1162431636


From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:40:36 -0500
In-Reply-To: <20061102004445.38247.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com>


Davif wrote:

To date the scant evidence suggests that the former two remained in an
Iberian Ice Age Refugium while the latter two huddled much further east -
but no one can say this with authority at present.

I agree with that.



Jackson


>From: David Faux <>
>Reply-To:
>To:
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:44:44 -0800 (PST)
>
>Well, Italians or those of Italian parentage have not been exactly lining
>up to be tested for R1b (perhaps in part because it is less common there
>than Britain). Of three that I recall off hand, two were S21+ and the
>third was S28+. I think that this is giving us an indication of what we
>will find when we test our large Italian research sample. The S28 is from
>an area that was heavily settled by La Tene Celts. The S21 though could be
>a remenant of the Ice Age Refugium; or the Germanic peoples who came after
>Alaric and his Visigoths to knock on the doors of Rome. The Longoboards of
>course gave their name (and probably a lot of genetic input) to the
>Province of Lombardy in Italy. It is possible that most R1b is either Celt
>or Germanic in derivation. With a larger body of data to work with perhaps
>someone can tease out the most likely alternative by exploring diversity
>indices and the like. Also Alaric and his Visigoths were in Italy (after
>sacking Rome - albeit rather
> gently as these things go) before moving on to Toulouse and the Aquitaine
>area of France. So if there was a stong similarity between the haplotypes
>of this part of France and Italy it might be instructive.
>
> Alas I really don't think that a large percentage of people who are R1b
>from wherever in Europe have a clear awareness of how important these two
>markers are for understanding their deep ancestry and by extension the
>population history of their Y homeland. Those of Irish descent however
>appear to be keen to test now that EA demonstrated the link between M222
>and Niall - NW Irish. If we could get those of Swiss descent (for example)
>to test en masse, I expect that S28 and to a lesser extent S21 would
>predominate - a legacy perhaps of the Celtic Helvici who are probably still
>residing in the mountain regions where their ancestors eluded Roman
>attempts to suppress (destroy) them; and the Marcomanni who moved south and
>west as the Roman Empire began to dissolve. There is so much to be
>learned. We have only scratched the surface.
>
> I am very anxious to test the different regions of Spain for these
>markers. We really are only speculating now that R1b1c* and R1b1c6
>outnumber R1b1c9 and R1b1c10. Surely there are pockets where the Suebi for
>example left their genetic imprint - but there is not even a handful who
>have a lineage traced to an area that history says was settled by these
>Germanic peoples. I expect that if the latter two R1b subclades are found
>in Spain it will be via Migration Period movements. To date the scant
>evidence suggests that the former two remained in an Iberian Ice Age
>Refugium while the latter two huddled much further east - but no one can
>say this with authority at present.
>
> David Faux.
>
>John German <> wrote:
> Is the Italian S21+ now a genuine phenomenon or is it still just a
>random happenstance?
>
>Ken Nordtvedt wrote:
>
> > I believe S21+ R1b is 75 percent of R1b in certain areas of greater
>Frisia.
> > But R1b is only a certain fraction of total population.
> >
> >>From the pie charts I see for Netherlands and Denmark, S21+ R1b and
>I1a/I1c
> > would be close competitors for numero uno.
> >
> > Ken
>
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