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From: "brian quinn" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:54:07 +1100
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1089.1162417927.22941.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com>


How about Tehran in Iran

Haplogroup I∗ was at high
frequency in Darginians (0.58), Abkhazians (0.33), and
North Ossetians from Ardon (0.32). This haplogroup
was found elsewhere in the Caucasus at a frequency
of only 0.13 or less, although it was also at high frequency
in the Turks (0.26) and Iranians from Tehran
(0.34)

Thos figures can be thought of as percents so 34 % of people in Iran are I*

From

doi: 10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00092.x
Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the
Caucasus
I. Nasidze 1,∗,

Mind you the Iranians took huge numbers of slaves out of Georgia and Southern Caucasus. In 1600s a traveller noted that not a single household in Iran was without Georgian slaves. Many slave soldiers too.

Just spent a couple of hours reading history of the area. Ethnic tampering on a large scale endlessly, including the Russian attempts down to Stalin and North Caucasus.

Mind you the locals were still taking slaves from each up to when the Russians arrived in 19th century.

However http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf

Article by Ivan Nasidze · Tamara Sarkisian · Azer Kerimov ·
Mark Stoneking
Title: Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus:
evidence from the Y-chromosome

Figure B on Pg 260 neighbour-joining plot

It shows the Darginians are close to Saami in y dna- (Dungans close to root,)
Brits and Basques down another branch (Sardinians near the root)
Lezginians, Svans and Ossetians way down a branch with the Turkish ( Azerbaijanians, Syrians near root)

The first two branches closer together than the last.
Dungan language can be understood by Mandarin Chinese speakers.
The origin is closest to the Armenians.


However I think the diagram Figure A MDS plot, looks like it makes more sense.

with Darginians as an outlier on the Iranian, Turkish, Georgians branch . The Saami in with the Russians, Hungarians and Dungan. The Brits Basque Czech off on the third branch.

Anyway I would say that the Darginians, Abkazinians are in with the Turkish/Iranian folk.

I don't know anything about neighbour-joining plots but it seems to make less sense than the multi dimensional scaling (which I presume is similar to PCA?)

On the other hand maybe I am throwing away piece of info that the Darginians are similar to the Saami, Sardinian, Armenian etc.

Perhaps I* groups are close to the root of all Euro/Iranians so that it is hard to work out its true branch.

And in the LGM where did those folk and the I* go to? the Black Sea beach resorts?
Me I would have headed for the Persian Gulf.(which didn’t exist I expect as the sea was so far out) You
could walk from Saudi Arabia to Iran without having to detour through Iraq. I imagine the Tigris Euphrates would have been formidable as the Ice Sheets melted and the Persian Gulf flooded again 12,000 years ago. I have a feeling that the bottom of the Persian Gulf was a bit of a Garden of Eden during the LGM. About 12,000 years ago there would have been an evacuation in all directions to Africa, India and back towards Europe.

Brian Quinn








Message: 1
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:06:05 -0500
From: "Jackson Montgomery-Devoni" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
To:
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed


Ok, so where do you think haplogroup I or it's subclades spent the LGM?



Jackson


>From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
>Reply-To:
>To: <>
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Ice age refugiums
>Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:00:57 -0700
>
>Look at Rootsi et al "evidence" for putting I1a in Iberia during the LGM.
>It's rather thin, based on only a handful of haplotypes and very uneven
>coverage of northwestern Europe in their database. Your other source says
>I1a is paleolithic. I guess if you bring the paleolithic up fairly close
>to
>the present that could be so, but I1a is probably younger than 10,000
>years.
>
>I have not done the count, but I suspect there is more (old) I1b2 in Iberia
>and Sardinia than I1a, yet people put the (old) I1b refuge in the Balkans.
>(old) I1b2 is of course a subclade of (old) I1b. (old) I1b also may not
>need a LGM refuge, and the same with (old) I1c. These three clades have
>age
>estimates all over the park, and they could very well be post-LGM in their
>foundings.
>
>Ken
*****



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