GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-11 > 1163450474
Subject: Re: [DNA] colla uais DNA
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:41:14 EST
In a message dated 11/13/2006 8:11:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,
I personally doubt that Galloglass
families (basically the ousted septs or non-inheriting
sons) genealogies would have caused the main Scottish
lines to alter their genealogies. Why Airgialla if a
clan wanted to glorify themselves? By then, the
Airgialla were in terminal decline and were rapidly
disappearing from Ulster.
You raise another interesting but related question here. Did the Scots
keep their own genealogies? Or were they written instead in Ireland?
The first Scottish pedigrees appear in Rawlinson B.502 (c. 1120 A.D.) -
but only for the line of the Scottish kings (Dal Riata). I can't say for sure
but a pedigree of the Scottish kings probably appears in the Book of Leinster
as well (c. 1170 A.D.). And numerous early Scottish historians including
John of Fordun (c. 1345) included the basic Dal Riata pedigree in their
histories. But there were no wide-spread Scottish pedigrees for the Highlands clans
in Irish MS.
Then suddenly we find a single Scottish pedigree other than the Kings of
Scotland in Irish MS. in the G2 manuscript (c. 1345) and in both the Books of
Ballymote and Lecan (c. 1400). And that pedigree is for the MacDonalds.
The only surviving Scottish MS. featuring pedigrees for the Highlands
clans is Skene's MS. 1450/67, written later than all of the Irish MS. And here
we find a few interesting quirks, especially in the pedigree of the Anradan
kindred, which might indicate the Scottish kept (from some unknown date) their
own pedigrees. Briefly, there are two variant pedigrees for the Anradan
kindred in Skene's MS. One agrees with the Irish version of the Books of
Ballymote and Lecan - the other does not. It may represent a separate "Scottish"
tradition altered by irish scribes to suit their own purposes.
If this is so we'll never know since manuscript copies of earlier
genealogical manuscripts in Scotland have not survived (if any ever existed in the
In short I have no idea myself if the pedigree for the MacDonalds linking
them to the line of Colla Uais originated in Scotland or was written for them
by Irish scribes. Where and how it originated might make a big difference in
judging its possible validity.
It would be interesting to see if the Irish Ui Tuirtre DNA matched that of
a large segment of the Scottish MacDonald population.
The Topographical Poems list two chieftains of the Ui Tuirtre.
The kings of Ui-Tuirtre_111_ (http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/odugan.htm#111)
of heavy slaughters,
O'Flainn,_112_ (http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/odugan.htm#112) of them is
Notes by O'Donovan.
112. O'Flainn, now made O'Lyn by aspirating the F; but by some it is very
incorrectly changed to Lindsay. The pedigree of this famous family, who were
the senior branch of the Orighialla or Clann Colla is traced to Colla Uais,
Monarch of Ireland in about the middle of the fourth century.
113. O'Domhnallain, now Donnellan without the O'. One of this family was
lord of all Ui-Tuirtre in 1015, but they are now little known. See Annals of
Four Masters, 1014, 1015.
The Topo Poems also list the Ui Fiachrach Finn as descendants of Colla Uais
(according to O'Donovan).
O hEirc over Ui-Fiachrach Finn,_114_
Without concealing battles and conflicts.
114. Ui-Fiachrach Finn, otherwise called the Ui-Fiachrach of Ardsratha. They
were seated along the river Derg, in the north-west of the county of Tryone,
and their territory comprised the parish of Ardstraw and some adjoining
parishes now belonging to the diocese of Derry. Ussher states (Primordia, p. 857)
that the church of Ardstraw, and many other churches of Opheathrach, were
taken from the diocese of Clogher, and incorporated with that of Derry. This
tribe of the Ui-Fiachrach is to be distinguished from that of Connaught. They
were descended from Fiachra, son of Erc, the eldest son of Colla Uais, Monarch
of Ireland in the fourth century. See O'Flaherty's Ogygia, part iii., c. 76;
and Leabhar na gCeart, p. 121, note i. The name of O'h-Eirc is now correctly
enough made Ercke, but without the prefix O'.
Another possibility might be the following:
King over the smooth meady plain,
Is O'Criodain_115_ (http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/odugan.htm#115) over
115. O'Criodain, now Cregan, without the prefix O'. The level territory of
this family still retains its ancient name, being now called Magheracregan. It
is situated to the south of the River Derg, in Tryone, in the territory
anciently called Ui-Fiachrach of Ardstraw.