GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-11 > 1164001575
From: "Alister John Marsh" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] DYS487=13 in I1a and new SNPs... & don't forget R1b
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:46:15 +1300
Long live the slow STRs!
I am one of the few (perhaps 1%) R1bs with DYS487=12. R1b is strongly modal
13. Of the few 12s in R1b so far, I can identify what may be several
separate mutations to 12, and at least one clerical mutation to 12.
None of the 12s I have seen so far seem to have roots outside the British
Isles. No significant haplotype similarity, but excluding an Irish type 3
example, all have DYS390=24.
There seems to be a mutation to 12 in the R1b Irish Type 3, which several
persons have, so 12s in that group might indicate a subclade within Irish
type 3, but probably not a big subclade.
There seems to be a clear majority of the different surnames with 12, which
potentially have Scottish roots, which might be something for me to explore
further. It might be possible that some of these are linked through an
oldish mutation to 12.
Of the 12s, a number of them occur within the same surname, supporting the
concept that a mutation on a slow marker to an unusual off modal value, is
highlighting a potential subclade of some sort, even if it is just a
"family" subclade. For example, 4 Marshes (Wales/ Lancashire/ Norfolk/
Cambridgeshire) with no paper trail connections, and all most likely
unrelated in the past 500 years, all have DYS487=12. Three of these are
clearly related, based on general haplotype similarity, the 4th (me) has
quite a genetic distance to the others, keeping me guessing, but I do share
some off modal features such as DYS385=12,14. If these 4 were related, the
common ancestor may be close to 900 years ago, putting the mutation to 12
back that order of time, meaning it is potentially shared by other surnames.
I am hoping more R1bs (and others) test more of the slow markers, such as in
the FTDNA38-67 panel, and in Ethnoancestry's 18 marker panel. As I have
said before, I am particularly interested in DYS575 in the EA panel, as the
marker seems slow from results so far, and has a couple of off modal values
in parts of R1b1c*. If one of these off modal values was deep enough, it
might indicate a potential subclade somewhere in R1b1c*. Ken's example in
I1a shows how potentially these slow markers can show subclade structure
within haplogroups. (....If someone asks what you want for Christmas,.....
just ask for a test on DYS575!)
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ken Nordtvedt
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: [DNA] DYS487=13 in I1a and new SNPs
One of the new markers in the FTDNA 38-67 set is DYS487. Except for I1a and
I1b2* = old I1(x), this marker is robustly modal 13 throughout haplogroup I,
including the small number of haplotypes of haplogroup I upstream of all the
known subclades. I even saw a 67 marker haplogroup F haplotype and it is 13
I1a is robustly modal 12 at DYS487. Only 22 out of 180 AngloSaxon I1a
(DYS462 = 12) are DYS487 = 13. And NONE of the Norse I1a deviate from the
DYS487 = 12. Could most of those 22 I1a with DYS487=13 represent the early
roots of I1a?
Ethnoancestry has five new SNPs which are in I1a. S62, S63, S64, S65, S66
I am having my own haplotype tested for these five SNPs; I'm one of the 22
haplotypes in I1a with DYS487 = 13. If we are lucky one or more of these
six new SNPs will turn out ancestral for my haplotype, suggesting a new root
clade within I1a distinquished by one or more of these new SNPs. I'll
report back when results come in.
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
|Re: [DNA] DYS487=13 in I1a and new SNPs... & don't forget R1b by "Alister John Marsh" <>|