Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-11 > 1164067162

From: "Steven Bird" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Sykes' data shows E3b absent entirely from "CentralEngland"
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:59:22 -0500
In-Reply-To: <>

Sykes selected men whose grandfathers had been born in the same town where
they lived. I assume by this that he was selecting families who had known
historical/genealogical ties to a specific area. This is standard practice
with population studies, as far as I can tell.

>Does anyone know how Sykes is making sure the DNA that is being
>compared is isolated to specific regions of England?

Wars tended to uproot whole areas or
>kill off the local population. London (Londinium) was totally burned
>by Queen Boudicca's forces in AD 60/61 when they also burned St.
>Albans and Colchester to the ground in their fight against the Roman
>legions and routed a lot of local inhabitants many of whom probably
>never returned if they weren't killed in the process.

See this map of Roman Britain:

After Boudicca's army was slaughtered near modern-day Towcester (at least
according to some historians it was near there), they retook every part of
Britain that had been in Boudicca's army's "control." That was in 61 A.D.
The Romano-British remained in force until the middle of the fifth century
and some were still living in Roman villas at the beginning of the seventh
century. Any impact on the population due to the revolt was completely
obscured later. Also, E3b in and around Colchester is actually quite high,
at about 4%. This is likely to be the part of England where my 3b Bird
family originated.

>A thousand years later William the Conqueror's forces did a fair
>amount of the same as they burned everything between the River Humber
>and the River Tees pretty much slaughtering all the villagers from
>York to Durham including Stafford, Derby and Chester. This sort of
>periodic activity mixed things up a lot.

As I stated in another e-mail, the theory that E3b arrived with the Normans
is brought under serious question by the absolute absence of this haplogroup
in the donut hole in Central England. I do not doubt that some E3b's were
killed by the Normans in their raids. But, and this is the key point, they
apparently WERE NOT REPLACED by other E3b's from Normandy and Brittany. If
they had been, they would today appear in the population of that area.

>There was a lot of movement around the country - it isn't all that
>big you know. Bristol to London is 119 miles. A man could walk this
>in 6 days doing 20 miles a day. Brisk walking, granted, but
>possible. London to Liverpool is only 210 miles - a good 10 day
>journey by foot. If one had a horse they could make from 30 to 40
>miles a day easily even through difficult terrain. Bristol to London
>would thus have been only 4 to 5 days journey. London to Liverpool 5
>to 7 days.

It's just not relevant. We are dealing with an utter absence of a
particular haplogroup in a region surrounded by a fairly high percentage
presence of the same group. This pattern suggests a mass exodus from the
central region to the surrounding counties by a specific group. These
people didn't KNOW they were E3b's but they did know that they were
Romano-British. I think that they were fleeing the Anglo-Saxons pouring in
across England from the Wash.

Did you ever do that science experiment where you shake a layer of black
pepper onto the surface of a bowl of water, then drop one drop of detergent
in the center? All of the black pepper grains "flee" rapidly to the edges
of the bowl, forming a circular clear space in the middle. I think that
some invader did the same thing to the E3b's in central England (which
assuredly must have been there at one time long ago). They fled the pagan

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