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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-12 > 1164972883


From: Daniel Jenkins <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] "Irish Type-III" Test Upgrade/dys 464 double duplication
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 11:34:43 +0000


Len, Brian, Dennis, John ,

My uncle Dan Gallagher is Y-search 92VDK and WNH3K
He is R1b1c7, NW modal , and he is also 13,13,15,17 at 464 a-d.
I had his SNPs done and they are M173,M207,M222,M269,M343,P25 plus

M126,M153,M160,M18,M37,M65,M73 ,P66 minus
SRY2627-

Maybe you are more expert at this, can see something here. I sense a link between NW and Type III, but probably wrong.
I also think that calling the NW haplotype , Nialls' , is misleading . Seems we should be looking much farther back.

Maybe when I go to the Gallagher Reunion , at Letterkenny next Sept. I can dig up a few prospective testees
with old lines in Donegal.

Dan Jenkins



----------------------------------------
> From:
> To:
> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:54:16 +1100
> Subject: Re: [DNA] "Irish Type-III" Test Upgrade/dys 464 double duplication
>
> Brian,
>
> There is one Walker that IS "Irish Type III", he is down in the 'unmatched
> area' Kit # 1948, Henry-OH. He is HYWR4 at Ysearch and has DYS464
> 13,13,13,15,17. (Modal for Irish Type III is 13,13,15,17).
> None of the other Walker's is part of this cluster.
> 4326 Thomas Benton is a GD of 30 from the Irish Type III modal (21 markers
> with variations. Definitely not part of this cluster.
>
> I am -ve for all FTDNA SNP markers below M269+ and am presently having the
> EA "S" test so will soon see if I am R1b1c*
>
> BTW, I wrote the piece for the Casey site http://casey.com/dna/node/129 and
> have expanded it on my site devoted to Irish Type III, presently a work in
> progress.
> Your comments on the mutation of 464 interest me greatly, and agreed, I have
> to look very closely at 464 to weed out from the R1b 459=8,9 to find the
> true Irish Type III members.
>
> Dennis Wright
> R1b1c Irish Type III
> Ysearch 6PWCD
> http://au.geocities.com/t120r61/Irish_Type_III.htm
>
> *********************************************************
>
> Brian Quinn wrote:-
> Subject: Re: [DNA] "Irish Type-III" Test Upgrade/dys 464 double
> duplication
>
>
> The trouble with Type III Irish is that it has no nice SNP yet, so R1b1c*(I
> think)
>
> I notice (to cut a long story short) that from Casey website
> http://casey.com/dna/node/129 and from Lochlan's
> http://members.aol.com/lochlan/dna.htm
>
> And
> http://www.familytreedna.com/(htntqe55xi4axl55fkrdeo55)/public/oneill/index.
> aspx?fixed_columns=
>
> And
>
> Walker http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fabercove/test_results.htm
>
> Only 1.5% have 5-6 copies. It is very fast mutating.
>
> that just looking at
>
> dys 464 a b c d e
>
> 8807 r.walker 12 13 13 13 14
>
> 46400 t.walker 12 13 13 14 14
>
> 30088 w.walker 12 14 14 16
>
> 4326 T.B.Walker 12 14 15 16 and 11 at 439, 8-9 at 459 and 15 at 456
>
> Type III 13 13 15 17
>
> 65653 14 15 17 17
>
> 63611HughO'Neill 15 15 16 17
>
> Atlantic Modal 15 15 17 17
>
> Airgialla 15 15 17 18
>
> NW Irish 15 16 16 17
>
> MrMcMahon 15 16 17 17
>
> 36420Cassity 15 16 16 17 18
>
>
> Just to go nuts R1a has
>
> 12 14 15 15
>
> 15 16 17 18
>
> Within the Duerinck family
>
>
>
> E3b Delong family has range of
>
> 12 13 13 14
>
> 15 16 17 17
>
>
>
> I 40404Cassidy 11 11 15 15
>
> I 25476 " 12 14 15 16
>
> It means the double duplication occurred before that lot left Africa? The
> range of muations up and down has been about the same in each Haplogroup.
>
> Dys 464 was one of the dys that Ken said was useful for dividing R1b
> something- he had a lot of others though see to left above for TB Walker.
> I'm pretending that science hasn't discovered any except the above.
>
> OK so what you say. Well from
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gkbopp/DNA/464.htm
>
> "DYS 464 was discovered at the University of Arizona by Dr. Alan Redd. This
> highly volatile (fast mutating) marker is included in the panel to help show
> changes even within family groups that are closely related. DYS 464 is
> replicated 4 times in 98.5% of people from Europe and the Middle East (the
> balance having 5 or 6 copies). Because the marker's location on the
> Y-Chromosome is not determinable we sort the marker from smallest to largest
> (385a/b is treated the same way), and therefore it is possible to overstate
> or understate the actual genetic distance when making a comparison by eye."
>
> It is one of those duplicated bits, and mutates fast. I imagine it doubled,
> then doubled again, then doubled again for the top two guys but lost
> one(?)(bit suspicious that)
>
> I imagine it was 14/15 originally, became 14-14 or 15-15, then mutated up or
> down on left or right side- so maybe 13-15 or 14- 16,
>
> Then doubled again so 13 13 15 15 or 14 14 16 16
>
> Then mutated 12 12 14 16 13 15 17 17 etc etc
>
> So eventually you get the range seen today, in the haplogroups I chose and I
> suspect many of the rest.
>
> So it help separate out even family members like the Walkers, does that
> mean it is too volatile for tribes- I would think so.
>
> TB Walker is awfully close to Type III Irish. Esp as dys 464 is a fast
> mutator.
>
> So dys 464 tells you little about your haplogroup but does let you tell
> close kin apart(does it ?). Thus it doesn't help define an Irish tribe at
> all. Interestingly looking at dys 438 459 I would say they are similar in
> telling you little tribal wise. But I didn't spend a heap of time on them.
>
> Brian Quinn
>
>
> -------------------------------
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