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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-12 > 1165024830


From: "Lowe DNA" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b geographical divisions
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:00:30 -0600
In-Reply-To: <20061201171851.9103.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com>


David..

Has any soul drawn maps of these new R1b1* distributions across Europe ?

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:]On Behalf Of David Faux
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:19 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b geographical divisions


John and List:

Yes, roughly, S21 (R1b1c9) is a Scandinavian - North Germanic marker, making
up the majority of R1b in those areas and the parts of Britain settled by
Germanic peoples. At this early stage it seems that Germany is a layer cake
with R1b1c9 in the north, R1b1c* in the mid section, and R1b1c10 in the
south. Curiously though, it hops to Italy where it is makes an excellent
showing (Ethnoancestry has yet to test an Italian R1b who is not either S21
or S28).

There is a fine write up about S28 (R1b1c10) on John's website. It is a
marker found in a band across the mid section of Europe from the Bay of
Bisquay in France to Greece tending to hug close to the Alps. The only
northern extension seen so far is in Southern Scandinavia and the diaspora
doubtless via the Vikings in Scotland and England (largely Orkney and the
Danelaw). It appears to be by in large an Eastern marker (I wonder if the
Uyghurs are S28) that has spread to the west in a cline, possibly petering
out before the Atlantic Ocean is reached - but due to low to no sampling in
most of Iberia we cannot say that with confidence. It has not been observed
in Ireland yet, but there is a pocket seen on the Island of Anglesey in NW
Wales - curiously alongside S21. If at some point we do find clusters of
one or more of these markers in Spain, Portugal and Ireland this will
probably help in our understanding of migration patterns, again especially
if regionally specific.

It is very odd (to me) that these obviously old (diversity indices are off
the charts) markers are still to this day so tightly linked to geography and
thus informative. M153, M222 and M167 also have this characteristic.
Curiously the "territory" of these three markers group in the west to
include primarily Ireland (M222, M167) and Iberia (M167, M153) as well as
Southwest England (M167). M222 also has a respectible showing in Scotland
but brings the stamp of Ireland with it. S21 and S28 group in central and
eastern areas of Europe, seemingly with very little overlap with the
territorial distribution of the other three markers.

2007 will see a broad expansion of the knowledge of these and other as yet
to be discovered R1b SNPs waiting to emerge from their hiding places.

David Faux
R1b1c10

John McEwan <> wrote:
Not enough people have been publicly tested to give a country by country
breakdown and some countries (eg France) are notoriously undersampled.
You can try to extraplolate SNP prevalence to key STR widely genotyped
markers and thence to larger databases. This gives some information for
varieties S21 (but with proviso's), but not really for S28.

My simple summary (maybe working hypothesis is a better term) is S21 is
prevalent north of the Rhine and S28 is prevalent in a band south of the
Rhine. The frequency of both in France is moot, but seems to be low in
Iberia.

Again based on little evidence I get the "feeling" that S21+ and S28+
may not be that prevalent east of central Europe.

If this turns out to be true it has interesting implications

Cheers

John





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