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From: Gary Felix <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Freq's 459 Unique R1b Iberian Haplotypes - BottlenecksinEast Asia
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:53:32 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <059201c72a16$b4e08a90$6401a8c0@Precision360>


Lawrence Mayka <> wrote: >Su's research actually says exactly the *opposite* of your earlier
>assertion. Far from claiming that Hg O had a 'total makeover' in a refugium

Where do you get this "total makerover" from. I merely said a bottleneck occured in Western Euro. R1b due to the LGM. This bottleneck as a result gives wide age estimates.

>Su asserts that yDNA STRs
>(specifically DYS389, DYS390, and DYS391) among Hg O3 members actually
>demonstrate the variance expected in a population 18-60 thousand years old.

Here we are talking about variance which is not the same as diversity. As far as I know you don't age haplogroups reliably by using variance or we would be using it.

You don't think they had a problem aging this subclade of O when they given window is 18-60 K?

>I will not comment on Su's calculations, only point out that Su clearly did
>*not* believe that a refugium could act as a magical Fountain of Youth on
>STR variance. In fact, Su specifically asserts that his equation is
>independent of bottlenecks and expansions:

If this is what he meant why is his estimate of O3 18-60K. He mean he used compensation to account for bottlenecks and expansions which BATWING does. He didn't just use STR's.
---
>To estimate the age of M122C haplotypes in the Han Chinese, we used the
>equation t=-Neln(1-V/Nem). We derived this equation from the single-step
>mutation model for a haploid population, assuming that population size
>(where Ne is the effective population size) stayed constant, that V is the
>variance of repeat numbers in the population, and that m is the mutation
>rate. If the population undergoes a strong bottleneck event followed by a
>rapid population expansion, it can be shown that this formula is still
>approximately valid.

The above calculation shows a given snipped population that accounts for bottlenecks and expansions, which is my point. Still the the estimated age is a wide range like R1b.
---

>I will, however, comment on the recent growth of the Snide Google Comment.
>This is the pernicious practice of posting amazing claims with no evidence,
>waiting for readers to look in vain for any such evidence on the Web, and
>then posting sources that are irrelevant or even contradictory to the
>original claim along with a Snide Google Comment implying that the reader
>should have been able to find the sources himself.

I find this totally ironic as I have done nothing but post evidence with my comments and you have done nothing but make unsupported denials, offering no evidence to counter. My comment about google was in reference to you not finding anything about a refugium in the link I gave you, instead of looking for evidence for you side of this discussion.

>In this case, needless
>to say, Google did *not* find any reference to the rejuvenation of Hg O in a
>refugium.

Look again, Google is a powerful tool.

In the future please provide evidence for your assertions.

Gary
Mexico DNA Project

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