Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-03 > 1172786275

From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Southwest England 23/11/13/13 hotspot
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:57:55 -0400
References: <>

These are not boundaries I have defined. I am
referring to the regions that Bryan Sykes used.
He has a map showing the boundaries at the
beginning of his book. Based on the map it seems
he classified Southwest as Cornwall, Devon
and that part of Somerset west of the mouth
of the Parrett River.

I do not suggest a sizeable Viking presence
in Southwest England. The whole point of
many of my posts is that I am not convinced in
anyway that 23/11/13/13 (DYS 390, 391, 392, 393)
is a Frisian identifier. Early on Ken Nordvedt
identified a haplotype combination which
included 23/11/13/13 and labeled it Frisian.
He believes that the origin of this pattern was
in the Netherlands or Denmark. I have
challenged this for a long time now. My
latest point here is that 23/11/13/13 is actually
stronger in southwest England and seems to
radiate from there. It has spread sufficiently
well throughout England. However, it did not
spread that well in northern Scotland or the
Hebrides which had a good Viking presence.

Even though I have challenged Ken I remain
open to the possibility that he may be right so
I don't get too much tunnell vision with this in
interpreting the data. Thus, my note that I would
consider Viking but don't think it likely
given the sparce presence in Northern Scotland.

The suggestion I was making was that the strong
23/11/13/13 presence came to southwest England
around 1200 BC. At this time there is an upheaval
in the culture of southwest England and the changes
that occured here at that time spread from there to
other parts of England. It has been felt that if there
was any significant change in DNA due to invasion
then this is the only solid point from the Neolithic up
to historic record. Given the 23/11/13/13 distribution
this is certainly a good candidate for the circa 1200
BC change.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ritchings" <>
To: "GenealogyDNA List" <>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: [DNA] Southwest England 23/11/13/13 hotspot

> Greetings Peter
> I regret that I am neither an historian nor a geneticist, but I do live
> in the South West of England. From what little I know about its
> history I would suggest that your results will very much depend upon
> how you have defined the "South West."
> The locals define the "South West" as essentially what is now
> Devonshire and Cornwall. The history of the peninsula can be quite
> different from the surrounding counties of Dorset, Somerset and
> Gloucestershire which some might also consider to be part of the South
> West of England.
> My understanding is that Anglo Saxons/Vikings did not come to the
> peninsula in any large numbers until around 700 AD. As this dating is
> particularly relevant to my own family history I would appreciate
> knowledge of your reference for a Viking presence of the size you
> suggest in this area. Is this solely within the Sykes book or is there
> some other independent reference?
> Many thanks
> John
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:03:15 -0400
> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
> Subject: [DNA] Southwest England 23/11/13/13 hotspot
> To: <>
> Message-ID: <002701c75b9d$66b80ec0$>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
> Last weekend I noted that based on Bryan
> Sykes "Blood of the Isles" data southwest
> England bettered Denmark and the Netherlands
> in terms of 23/11/13/13 (DYS 390,391,392,393)
> as a percentage of those sampled. Ken suggested
> that it would not hold up as a percentage of
> 24/11/13/13. I thought I'd check on this and
> can report that it does. South West England
> returns 42/51 (82.35%).
> Anyone want to have some theories for this.
> Based on what I know I can't help but think
> it relates to the period around 1200 BC
> when the archaelogical records suggests
> an invasion in southwest England/Wessex
> area. I would think Viking but this does
> not hold up in other northern parts of the
> British Isles one would expect strong
> 23/11/13/13 due to Vikings.
> Best wishes!
> Peter A. Kincaid
> Fredericton, NB, Canada
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