GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-04 > 1176428179


From: "Sasson Margaliot" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ten Lost Tribes, Far East, esp. Japan
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:36:19 +0300
References: <3b2a446a0704112128x1445757bj6ce52e4af54c0c84@mail.gmail.com><929677.31843.qm@web52112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <929677.31843.qm@web52112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


On 4/13/07, ellen Levy <> wrote:
>
> Sasson:
>
> I do agree with
> your dismissal of these crackpot theories, Sasson, but
> hate to see attention brought them on the List.


Ellen,

I regret the fact that this discussion of the DNA of Ancient Israeli was
disrupted by introduction of non-scientific assertions.


There are a lot of problems here, not least of which
> are some of your assumptions concerning Israelite DNA
> and how much contemporary Jewish groups reflect their
> ancient Levantine forbearers.



Let's examine which of my assumptions you consider problematic.


Many current DNA
> results are clearly the result of strong founder
> effects and population bottlenecks.



Certainly. The Jewish businessmen were invited into "Ashkenaz" by the
Western European monarchs in order to help their economy. The would not
agree to come unless the Rabbis were also invited, and so the community
combining some of the smartest Rabbis and businessmen was created. This
explains the "Ashkenazi Intelligence" by simple artificial selection.


Also, which
> results reflect genetic remnants of Levantine
> ancestors and which entered the community from
> converts or admixture over the centuries is greatly
> debateable.



It is, and this is exactly what is being debated.


Without more extensive DNA studies,
> including those on Sephardic and Middle Eastern Jews,
> a lot of these questions remain unanswered.


We still can try to deduce the answers from what is known.

I believe that Ashkenazi groups such as R1a1 and Q are
> the result of admixture, possibly with Khazarian
> converts.


The admixture of some of R1a1 could also have happened in ancient Israel,
to the extent the R1a1 are also present in Sepharadim.



The majority of Ashkenazi Levites (ie,
> Tribe of Levi) are R1a1.


This seems like the result a "founder effect" at unknown point time time.


In contrast, the CMH among
> J1 Cohanim (both Sephardic and Ashkenazim) suggest an
> Israelite ancestry.


Definitely. Historically, the Cohanim were always super-strict about the
preservation of the patrilinear identity. .


Some Ashkenazi R1b may be from
> Israelite ancestors, some from non-Jewish European
> ancestors.


I do not think R1b were readily available for mixing with Israelites.

The elevated level of R1b in Holland can be explained by the fact that all
European converts were coming to Holland to escape persecution.


I suspect most Ashkenazi haplogroup I
> results are due to admixture - we've got a real
> mixture of I1b, I1a and I1c.


This could again be in Israel (from Syrian neighbours), but also possibly in
Europe.


If you adopt the approach that what is presented in
> the Bible is historically accurate,


Quite independently of the religious teachings of Bible
(which I personally adopt),
the historic data in Bible appear very accurate.


then you are going
> to have some problems reconciling that presentation
> with modern-day DNA results.


Actually such reconciliation is advancing rather well.


I don't intend to get
> into a religious discussion here, by the way.


I also think it is important to avoid religious and other off-topic
discussions on the List


My
> comments are not intended to undermine anyone's
> religious adherence to the idea that the events as
> presented in the Bible represent actual facts.



Only information about Genealogy is relevant to DNA research.
Stories of miracles, prophecy, are not relevant to DNA Genealogy at all.

My own
> opinion, which is based on the scientific approach, is
> that there are small kernels of historical truth
> buried within in the Old Testament, but a whole lot of
> mythology, political and social commentary,
> propaganda, and religious agenda.



While I disagree with that point of view, let me point out that
even in political propaganda the facts about geography and nationalities
are usualy given right.

Problematically, though, Levites are primarily R1a1,
> and Cohanim (which they are allegedly descended from)
> are not.


I do not think it is realy problematic, since naturally Cohanim
are much more genetically conservative element,
so we do not suspect R1a to be the original tribe.



We've debated on the List before whether the
> CMH as it associated with the Cohamin caste are
> actually within haplogroups J1 and J2. Again,
> listers, you can check the archives.


Yes

I believe I have
> previously asserted that the strong suspicion is that
> it is in J1. I think Bonnie also suggested this, as
> well as some other researchers of haplogroup J.


But others pointed out that the question is not yet settled, and both
options are possible.

The bottom line is that CMH is not mainly found in
> J2a1b as you have asserted.


CMH is mainly found in J1.
But outside of J1, it is mainly found in J2a1.


Please cite the DNA
> studies that support this contention.


It was mentioned by Bonnie and Al on this List.


Furthermore, the
> Tribe of Levi (as represented by Levites) are not as
> high in the CMH (either J2 or J1)



The non-J Levites today are not apparently from the original tribe of Levi.

More attention needs to be paid to the Js among the Levites.


as their allegedly
> ancestral Cohanim, but they are high in R1a1, which
> appears to be nearly absent in Cohanim.




and plenty of non-Jewish Europeans. My maternal
> grandfather is Cohanim - he is J1 with the CMH. He
> matches many other Cohanim, both Sephardic and
> Ashkenazic, all SNP'd J1.



This is important information, but there are other reports about CMH-6
Cohanim who are in J2.

My personal observations
> are therefore supported by my own family's DNA results
> as reported by FTDNA.


Since J1 is so high in CMH-6 in general, it is not surprising and very
informative to find the J1 Jews to have CMH.

I hope you don't feel mind me asking a personal
> question - are your own DNA results in haplogroup
> J2a1b? Just curious.


I did not do any tests yet, so I do not know.




Sasson Margaliot

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