GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-06 > 1180914109


From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Megalith Builders
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 16:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <b1049c4b0706031511x25fccb5u33d084dc81163592@mail.gmail.com>


Mr. Peltosalo:

I'm going to try to refrain from getting into a large
linguistic debate with you. As informative as
linguistics and archaeology can be to various
questions of ancient peoples and their distribution,
they are generally used pheripherally in support of
genetic arguments on the list. You utilize no genetic
studies whatsoever in your arguments, other than
anthropologically-based morphological studies, some of
which are quite outdated.

Atkinson & Gray dated Hittite, which was spoken in the
Middle East, to 8700 BP. Tocharian was dated to 7900
BP and the Greek/Armenian split from IE to 7300 BP.

Your assert some theory concerning "proto-Greeks" as
being of a "Cro-Magnoid type," not "Mediterranoid of
the Neolithic." Again, this is rather outdated
anthropological phenotype terminology being utilized
here. How about some DNA studies? Were do you find
the "Proto-Greeks" in the archaeological record? How
are they identified as "proto-Greeks" (what is the
archaeological package that identifies them as such)?
What is the "Mediterranoid of the Neolithic" type and
how is translated in to genetic and archaeological
terminology, if at all? Please cite DNA studies, both
Y and mtDNA, as that would be particularly helpful to
this discussion.

And how about some relevant archaeological studies
here as well, while we are at it? Greece was settled
as early as 8000 years ago by Neolithic farmers out of
the Middle East. I'll trot out the archaeological
studies if anyone is really interested. Are you
asserting this was the native population (after
presumed admixture with earlier Mesolithic population,
whomever they were, genetically-speaking) that met up
with your invading kurgan-R1b-Cro-Magnoid-Proto-Greeks
out of the Balkans? How do you know R1b wasn't part
of the earlier Neolithic movements out of Anatolia and
the Levant? And how have you linked "Proto-Greeks"
(please define that term genetically, as you appear to
be using it in a genetic sense, or are you merely
asserting it as a group that spoke proto-Greek) to the
Kurgan culture of southern Russia?

You seem to think that I have must a degree to discuss
linguistic theory in any kind of knowledgeable or
intelligent manner. No one on this list is required
to have a degree and we don't denegrate lister's
opinions simply because they don't have a BA in a
certain subject. People without degrees can actually
discuss things intelligently without such
qualifications. You seem to be suggesting otherwise
and, furthermore, that you should be accepted as an
authority on the subject simply because of your
qualifications or because you are a college senior in
Linguistics.

Additionally, your theory encompasses much more than
simply linguistic theory, which is far from settled
fact, despite your manner of presentation, but also
involves genetics and archaeology. There are many
persons knowledgeable in both topics here on the list,
some with actual college qualifications as well, which
seems to be particularly meaningful to you.

You ask what my qualifications are. I have a BA in
anthropology with a specialization in archaeology. My
college work was focused on ancient Greek pottery
styles and I participated in excavations in Sardinia,
Italy. I have participated in list discussions for
years, some of which topics I feel more knowledgeable
about than others. I still have much learn, both from
the DNA studies and other listers.

Does that make me any more qualified than anyone else
on the list about genetics (or even archaeological)
theory. No, of course it doesn't. However, your
questioning whether I have the "authority" to
question your linguistic theories (actually, you say
"our linguistic theories." Who is in this highly
sacrosanct group, if I might ask?) as if I must have a
degree or some special background to do so, and as if
your degree makes your theory unassailable, is
insulting.

Ellen Coffman




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