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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-06 > 1180919135


From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Megalith Builders
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 18:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <b1049c4b0706031725q5f14c200g7cd26b66085b8bd8@mail.gmail.com>


Mr. Peltosalo:

If anyone other than yourself is interested in
archaeological references to the Mesolithic/Neolithic
transition, then I'll provide them. I think if you
search the list archives, however, I've cited them
before. Otherwise, you can attempt to contact me off
list for such details. I'll provide one excellent
reference right now: Europe's First Farmers, edited by
T. Douglas Price, Cambridge University Press, 2000. A
number of archaeologists contributed to this book.

I don't recall the specific DNA studies you have cited
in support of your argument, so perhaps you will
provide them once more.

I haven't denegrated your use of archaeological data.
I've complained that you have failed to utilize
archaeological studies, most of which present a very
uncertain and complex picture of the past, and more
importantly for this list, the DNA studies themselves.
You haven't even asked a single question of any
listers that I am aware of, many of whom are
incredibly knowledgeable about a topic of central
importance to your theory: haplogroup R1b, its
distribution and sub-clades.

Just because Atkinson & Gray are not linguists does
not invalidate their work. Apparently "Nature" felt
there work worthy enough of publication. That does
not mean that there may not be some who disagree, but
your tendency to invalidate people's theories or work
not based on the actual work itself, but simply
because they don't possess a degree in a particular
area is snobbery, in my opinion.

And yes, I've read Mallory, whom you have previously
deemed "aristocratic" in his work. I think him a
brillant researcher, by the way. But what does that
have to do with your theory? I don't recall Mallory
ever suggesting that R1b is responsible for Centum IE.

How is it that you have judged Rich as "knowing his
IE"? Simply because he appears to agree with your
theories? I think Rich highly intelligent, but I
can't see how he knows anymore about this highly
speculative topic than any other lister.

How about responding to some of the questions posed in
my earlier post:

How do you define "Proto-Greeks?"
How are they identified in the archaeological record?
How are they identified, if at all, in the DNA
studies?
What is "Cro-Magnoid" vs. "Mediterranoid of the
Neolithic?" Do you define these terms purely based on
morphology, or are you asserting haplogroup difference
sbetween these groups? If so, what studies are such
assertions based on?
Since the archaeological evidence is that parts of the
Mediterranean world, including Greece, were settled as
early as 8000 BC by Neolithic farmers, do you suggest
that these people, whomever they were genetically and
whoever they mixed with genetically from the
Mesolithic, were in Greece before your "Proto-Greek
Mycenaeans" invaded? Do you attach particular
haplogroups to the movement of these peoples and, if
so, based on what Y DNA or mtDNA studies?

Ellen Coffman


--- "E. Peltosalo" <> wrote:

> Ellen said: 'kurgan-R1b-Cro-Magnoid-Proto-Greeks"
>
> You need to start over, since I never made that R1b
> association.
>
> Ellen said: "I'll trot out the archaeological
> studies if anyone is really
> interested."
>
> Do.
>
> Ellen said: "You utilize no genetic studies
> whatsoever in your arguments"
>
> Yes, I have, and you should remember it.
>
> Ellen said: "Atkinson & Gray dated Hittite ..."
>
> Atkinson and Gray are not linguists, as I've said.
>
> Ellen said: "phenotype + outdated"
>
> Really? Ever read JIES? Mallory? Telegin?
> Schwidetzky?
>
> Ellen said: "No one on this list is required to have
> a degree"
>
> I never said they were. Rich doesn't have a degree
> in linguistics, but he
> knows his Indo-Europeans.
>
> Ellen said: "we don't denegrate lister's opinions
> simply because they don't
> have a BA in a certain subject"
>
> Then what's your problem with me discussing
> archaeology?
>
> Ellen said: "Were do you find the "Proto-Greeks" in
> the archaeological
> record?"
>
> They appear as the Mycenaeans, who were Cro-Magnoid.
> Not hard to find out,
> and hard to contradict.
>
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