GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-06 > 1181405677


From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Megalith Builders
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 09:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c7aab1$bd31a870$6401a8c0@Richard>


Rich:

I don't think its helpful to discuss Mr. Peltosalto in
depth other than saying personal attacks and
denigration of other list members is unacceptable.
I'll refrain from saying anything else and move to the
real topic.

In reality, it needs to be understood that
"Indo-Europeans" does not designate any sort of racial
or ethnic group in scientific literature. It merely
indicates a group that speaks a particular IE
language.

Problematically, however, is the attempt in this
thread to attribute a racial/genetic aspect to IE
speakers that they haven't had the misfortune of being
since Nazi Germany. I wasn't especially enamored with
the scenario that R1a=IE anymore than I am with the
R1b=centum IE (with R1a still apparently retaining
satem origins). I admit that it is something of a
visceral reaction to reject these theories (and I have
two lineages that are R1a and my children are R1b).

Still, I try to keep an open mind despite my initial
gut reaction. My real problem is that other important
issues aren't being addressed, making the theory less
and less reliable. Where is I, J and E3b? Are they
already in Europe? If so, why are they also not
already in the IE homeland area, perhaps even
originating there themselves (such as E-M78) and
thereby participating in the migration out? Where was
this place where the R1b/R1a IE speakers originated?
Have we really determined where R1b originated and
when? Or the IE homeland - that seems a great matter
of debate.

And I don't think the archaeological or linguistic
evidence should be ignored; nor, most importantly, the
genetic picture. If R1b came into Europe so late as is
being proposed, what are the genetic remnants today,
if any, of the Paleolithic hunter-gatherers (mtDNA U8
among the Basque is a possibility, as is N1a among
Europeans, but how about Y lines?). And the Neolithic
agriculturalists would have been well established in
Europe at this point, and in fairly large numbers,
though they didn't hit Northwest Europe until 5000 BP.
Are you proposing that J and E3b and I were in Europe
BEFORE R1b? That would certainly turn things on its
head.

These are the issues that need to be fleshed out in
the scenario. As you know, I have much problem with
the Iberian R1b/H Paleolithic noble savage hypothesis
(just refuted once again, by the way, in the latest
Basque study), but I'm not more inclined to adopted
your scenario right now as a replacement. They both
fail at this point to take in the necessary complexity
of population and linguistic transitions over vast
periods of time, the great mysteries inherent in
linguistic and archaeological research on these
topics, and the very complicated archaeological and
genetic picture of Europe.

If you decide to flesh out your argument, I do wish
you the best of luck! It would be a fascinating
research project.

By the way, if there are any listers who can address
my questions concerning R1b's origins, could you
please contact me. I'd appreciate it. We seem to be
debating R1b/IE without any real discussion of where
R1b originated and when, as well as R1a's origins. I
had thought Anatolia for R1b, but perhaps this is
incorrect?

Ellen Coffman


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