GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-06 > 1181591810


From: "Elizabeth O'Donoghue" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The People of the Lightning: Fir Bolg and Belgae
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:57:13 +0100
In-Reply-To: <247420.25608.qm@web83718.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


With so much reference to the Milesians in both John Plummer and John
Lochlan's posts, I am compelled, with my interest in the Gaels/Milesians, to
add my thoughts on the matter.

Much of the very early history which is covered in the posts must be largely
conjecture, with uncertainty of attribution for any personages before the
600's AD, when writing began with the Irish scribes. But similarity of
names in various renditions of the origin tales do show a consistency of
thought. For instance, Eochu and Eochaid mentioned by John P and Eochaidh
Mughmedoin mentioned by John L are quite possibly the same legendary
progenitor of the Ui Eachach/Eoghanacht. He is also called Eochy MacMidir -
Midir being the god of the dead. John P posited that Daire and Daire Dorn
Mor are the same. Daire Donn, 'The King of the Eastern World' is a
significant figure for the Eoghanacht, Donn being the King of the
Underworld. Daire is cognate with Daghda, the Great God, also meaning
'fruitful one'. John said: 'Daire also sometimes appears as the father of
Sedna or Cuchulain. “His mother was Irish but his father was said to have
been a foreigner.”' I wonder, could that have been a Scythian connection? :)
The annals speak of Donn as Milesius/Gallo's eldest son. These are
interesting coincidences.

John L speaks of northern and southern goidels - which are both
Goidels/Gaels. He suggest that they are the northern and southern Ui Neill,
the northern goidels descendants of Nial and the southern goidels
descendants of Eochaidh Mughmedoin - but who is Eochaidh Mughmedoin if not
the progenitor of the Eoghanacht? The Eoghanacht are synonymous with Gael,
and the O'Sullivans and McCarthys - in addition to the O'Donoghues (my
obvious vested interest) and a number of other families as well, including
O'Callaghan, O'Mahoney and O'Moriarty - are definitely not R1b1c7. So how
could the northern goidels be NWIMH?

An early post of mine some months ago called question to the designation of
Niall of the Nine Hostages as being/belonging to the NWIMH. Based on the
proposed age of the NWIMH, it seems likely that this group comprised early
inhabitants of the northern part of the island, long before the arrival of
the Gaels. I contended that Niall might very well NOT be R1b1c7. If he
were Milesian, he could not possibly be. Then again, scholars have argued,
as John P points out, that all sons attributed to Niall may not have been
so - and for that matter later leaders such as Shane and Hugh O'Neill were
openly considered to be illegitimate lineages as well. Hence, the
appellation 'Nine of the Nine Lineages' (not my invention) might be a more
appropriate one.

The interesting thing to me is that the majority haplotype amongst the
O'Neills - quite clear even in the data from the Trinity study - is one much
closer to the WAMH, which I believe is the basic haplotypes of the
Eoghanacht/Milesians (which is, of course, not terribly different from the
Erainns...but then they all come from basically the same place - Spain, just
different incursions). Even most of the McKenzies that John P mentions have
a much more prevalent WAMH-type haplotype than the few NWIMH that are indeed
also present. But this is not uncommon, to find both in the mix of a
surname, both in Ireland and Scotland. For instance, both McKenzies and
Clann Donnachaidh show a pronounced affinity within some of their clusters
to O'Donoghue Mor DNA. Another example, the O'Briens have a high percentage
of the Irish Type III - the chief is such - but there is a percentage of
NWIMH amongst them as well, which is a bit unusual insofar as their
territories are further south than the large cluster in the NW. This can
be explained by the fact that the Ui Neills had sent mercenaries down from
the north to bolster the Deisi Becc forces to undermine the Eoghanacht in
the 10th century.

When surnames were adopted, the tendency would have been to take the name of
the leader of the tribe, regardless if there was an assured family
connection or not. But normally, the preponderance of a particular
haplotype would tend to indicate the core group of familial relation for the
name.

With regard to the Dal Riata, it's probably not all that wise to label them
as either Erainn or NWIMH. To say who they were is missing the point. They
are probably both, if not other lineages as well. Dal Riata basically
means - parts (both the Irish and Scottish side) connected by a road - in
this case, the North Channel of the Irish Sea. There would have been
extensive trading and movement back and forth for millennia across this
relatively short distance - only 40 km from Donaghadee to Port Logan, and it
wouldn't have been limited to any one particular group of peoples.

Another point is John P's reference to Scota. The practice in the earliest
annals was to describe the Irish Gaels as Scots - Ireland was called Scotia
Major and Scotland was Scotia Minor. The Highland Scots were perhaps in the
main immigrants from Ireland across the Dal Riata, displacing the indigenous
Picts, but as I said above, there would have been a genetic mix to some
degree amidst them all.

And last, I must mention John P's ancestor Cleeve's wife, Joan Price, a
Welsh woman. The name Price is 'Ap Rhys' in Welsh, meaning 'son of' Rhys (a
princely house), showing the P Celtic sound of *ap*, in the Welsh language.
The Irish use *Mac* to designate 'son of', indicating the Q Celtic on Scotia
Major and Minor. Who says O'Rahilly is all wrong?

Regarding the Fir Bolg themselves, as John L just posted 'O'Rahilly gives a
list of Irish tribes as branches of the Erainn or Belgae
in Ireland' so they didn't all have 'nice Milesian pedigrees', even if they
weren't 'black-haired, vociferous, ill-doing, tale-telling,' or whatever. :)

Elizabeth








This thread: