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From: "Elizabeth O'Donoghue" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Milesians rather than The People of the Lightning:FirBolgand Bel...
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:06:25 +0100
In-Reply-To: <bdc.13f2d912.33a1f456@aol.com>


John said: 'O'Rahilly described a two-pronged invasion of Ireland by
Q-Celtic tribes,
which he described as the northern and southern goidels. I'm sure this is
where you're getting your Gael statements from.'
---
The name 'Gael' did not become popular in the annals until around 1000 -
'Scot' being more prevalent prior to that. I use Gael, since it is the
current appellation, which by its usage, defines this last incursion of
peoples into Ireland. There are more ancient names which would presage its
usage. Milesius himself is also called Gallo. There are Celtic areas in
Hallstadt/ancient time - Galacia in Spain, Galithia in Poland and Galatia in
Turkey.

An interesting aside - Hallstadt means 'Hall' - salt and 'stadt' - city.
There is/was a huge source of salt in that area. Linguistically, 'Hal' is
an aspiration of 'Gal'. Some scholars suggest that the Celts/Galls, who
needed salt to cure their meat, they not being farmers but herders,
established the culture which became known as Hallstadt and later La Tene.

I don't necessarily believe the Erainns were Belgae. I think at least some,
particularly in the south, also came from Spain - hence the close genetic
mix and difficulty to differentiate between them and the later 'Gaels' - be
they from the East or otherwise.
---
'But the ancestral gods of the Eochanachts appear to have
been borrowed from the Erainn among whom they settled in
Ireland.'
---
Like Eoghan Mor taking the Leinster God Nuadat - and becoming Mogh Nuadat
---
'According to O'Rahilly, the Ui Neill or descendants of Conn (northern
goidels) weren't even in Ulster until after or during the death of Nial 'of
the
NIne Hostages.' (c. 400 to 450 AD). Then mythology tells us the three
sons
of Nial pushed into the north of Ireland and for the first time established
kingdoms in the NW (Donegal, Tryone). Other historians disagree with
O'Rahilly
on this point, saying they came instead from Connacht and not the midlands.
But most seem to accept the basic premise that the Ui Neill first settled
in
the NW after the death of Nial.'
---
Insofar as Conn of the Hundred Battles is considered ancestral to the Ui
Neill, and his base was supposedly Connacht, and furthermore it is thought
by most that Niall captured Patrick, and Patrick's mountain, Croagh Patrick
is in Connacht, it would seem to make sense favouring Connacht over Meath.
Tara is believed by the majority of scholars to be far older as a center
(Boyne Valley, Newgrange, etc. etc.) than the comings of Conn or Niall.

Interestingly, if you look at the frequency distribution map in Trinity's
paper 'A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland', the highest
concentration of R1b1c7 is around Strabane at the Donegal/Derry border, with
a smaller cluster around Charlsetown in Sligo. Neither of these areas
particularly center where Niall's lineage would be considered strongest.
---
'Was O'Rahilly right about some of this? Most of it? Just a little? I
have no idea. Maybe DNA will someday give us some answers. The prevailing
opinion among the DNA experts on this list is that the NW Irish or R1b1c7
DNA
originated in Ireland itself and was not the result of some later migration
as
O'Rahilly describes.'
---
If you posit that the NWIMH is not necessarily Ui Neill at all, but far
older - remember John McEwan's estimate of TMRCA is at least 3400 years
old - then O'Rahilly's position would not contradict the DNA experts. You
said earlier: 'While O'Rahilly never actually stated as much, he seemed to
imply the northern and southern goidels (Ui Neill and Eochanachta) were
somehow related tribes, if nothing else, by language (Q-Celtic).'

If the Gaels were indeed the last incursion into the island, give or take a
few hundred years from O'Rahilly's estimate of 50 BC, and the 'northern and
southern goidels (Ui Neill and Eochanachta)' were indeed related, then the
original Ui Neills - supported by your majority ONMH - *would* have a
genetic connection to the Eoghanacht.
---
You said: 'On the origin of Eoghanachta DNA they [the DNA experts] have
been strangely silent, although to be sure, the R1b1c7 DNA is wide-spread
and easily identifiable by STRS alone and the two southern DNA modals are
much more difficult
to analyze.'
---
I can't say that I blame them. It would be wonderful to have a neatly
packaged haplotype like the NWIMH to label the Eoghanacht - but there isn't
one. The Trinity group had initially launched into a study of the
Eoghanacht after their IMH/Niall conclusions, but other commitments, and I
believe a sense of puzzlement, has delayed if not defeated a definitive
analysis and resulting paper.

I have collected data from a number of name projects and other searches,
both Gaelic and non-Milesian (there are indeed some), and have concluded
that there are a few markers/patterns that set the one apart from the other.
My Eoghanacht Raithlind/O'Donoghue Mor ancestral modal is almost pure WAMH,
with a significant cluster of 12 at DYS392; and a there is a general
preponderance of 15 at DYS456 rather than the WAMH 16 amidst all the
Eoghanacht names. There are four other markers that fluctuate - DYS391 -
11/10, DYS385b - 14/15, DYS439 - 12/11 and DYS447 - 25/24, with the former
WAMH/Raithlind and the latter the Southern Irish modal. My Eoghanacht
Cashel/Glens O'Donoghue matches the SI except for variations at CDY and 442.
A few have been tested to R1b1c, and I suspect they are probably all that,
but that designation is up in the ether and completely unhelpful right now.

There are numerous clusters within the different names, and to my mind, only
those who closely align with the alleles I mentioned above are true
Eoghanacht lineages. As in any name project, there are various levels of
outliers and different haplogroups. The larger the project, the more
variance.

I'm sure it would only be someone with a similar vested interest who would
be prepared to delve into the maze I've described. If anyone has read this
far and really wants to, they can contact me off list and I'll be happy to
supply them with more detail.
---
'In short, I don't see any of the tribes in Ireland in historical times and
even before coming directly from Ireland to Spain as the Milesian legends
state.'
---
I suspect you mean 'to Ireland from Spain'. And I would agree that it all
happened before written Irish 'historical' times. But -- There was great
pressure on the Spanish Celts during the Roman campaign there around 100 BC.
And the Eastern Celts were for the most part driven out of present day
Romania as a result of the Dacian wars in 100 AD. They had to go somewhere.
Either of these time frames could explain an incursion into Ireland -
possibly with an awareness of earlier migrations of the same peoples over to
Ogygia. Finding similar and sometimes identical haplotypes in these areas
that match the boys over here has to give one some pause. I just want/need
more...

Overall, your posts are a very illuminating survey. I agree with you on
almost all aspects you cover. You obviously know your O'Rahilly. But I
have one further question. In all the tribes you mention, there is no
mention of Ui Eachach Cobo. This tribe, as you might imagine, is most
interesting to me in my Eoghanacht studies.

According to Daithi O hOgain, Eochaidh MacMidir, son of Daire Donn, King of
the Eastern World [I love that name :)], went north to Lough Neagh (Loch
n'Each) where he founded Ui Eachach Cobo. These dates are probably likely
to be late and may infer a spillover across the Dal Riada into Scotland. O
Corrain places them in the diocese of Dromore, south of Lough Neagh. (He
also labels them Cruithin, which doesn't make much sense within the
annalistic history of the Ui Eachach - but they could have been the
overlords of the conquered Cruithin, much as the O'Briens seem to be
Dalcassian Eoghanacht over the Deisi tribes.)

In my DNA studies, I mentioned earlier that we have found quite intriguingly
that two Scottish tribes in particular, the McKenzie and Clan Donnachaidh
have a certain percentage of haplotypes matching Desmonian Eoghanacht - this
may be a indication of a connection to Eochaidh. Thus far, we have been
unable to identify the Ui Eachach Cobo signature in a modern surname. It
would be most interesting if you had any ideas on the subject. I appreciate
your scholarship.

Elizabeth



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