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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-07 > 1185427701


From: "Roberta J. Estes" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Native American Testing
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:28:21 -0400
In-Reply-To: <1185426127_4742@smtp.awasco.com>


First let me say that this commentary is in no way a negative reflection
about DNATribes. I've used them and have no ax to grind, but it's about the
state of the technology and the data bases today.

DNATribes does NOT use either mitochondrial DNA or Yline for their
advertised DNA matching service. They use autosomal DNA. As per the
previous discussions regarding autosomal DNA analysis on this list, it is,
at best, an infant science. Your autosomal DNA is that which is contributed
by each parent, about 50% per parent per generation, relatively randomly
(although there is ongoing research about just how random the selection and
transmission actually is), so over several generations, markers that might
indicate Native American (or any other Ethnic) DNA will be lost by
recombination. Which markers are lost and which are maintained is random.
Furthermore, there is a significant amount of discussion about the use of
the specific set of markers used by Tribes (or any other autosomal
testing/comparison company for that matter except for DNAPrint who uses a
proprietary set of markers) because the specific markers being used, the
CODIS markers, which are used by police departments for forensics, were in
actuality selected in order to identify individuals from each other, not to
pinpoint their commonality. For example in the forensic (and academic)
literature, from which the data bases that exist today have been built, who
identified the individual as a specific ethnicity or tribe? The arresting
officer, the suspect who is being DNA tested, who?

So, in a nutshell, today, the ONLY testing that can positively identify
Native American ancestry is in fact the yline and the mtdna testing.
Autosomal testing MAY indicate Native Heritage, may indicate a tribe, but we
are left with significant reliability issues and questions as yet unanswered
about the robustness of the underlying data and the source of the data as
well.

I don't discourage people from taking autosomal tests, but I think they are
best taken in conjunction with mtdna and yline dna (if those are the lines
believed to be native) or in conjunction with the testing of others from the
lines believed to be native. In some cases, your person will have to find
someone to sit proxy for them.

If they can't do that, they they need to very clearly understand that the
Tribes info (as well as any other autosomal analysis info of this type)
should be chocked up to the "interesting" category, and little more until
the underlying data bases and technology becomes significantly more robust.

By virtue of example, my initial report from Tribes, and a subsequent one,
are quite different and that was months ago. I'm sure if I resubmitted
again, it would be significantly different again because they have added a
lot to their data bases since then. Same scenario a year from now, or two,
or five. So which one do I decide to "believe" and to pin my hat on? The
answer of course if none of them....they are all interesting and as time
moves forward, they all get closer to the truth....but we're not there
yet....so begin with mtdna and yline and tread elsewhere fully informed and
carefully.

Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of OrinWells
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:55 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Native American Testing

In his case the connection is Maternal so one obvious step would be to check
the mtDNA for the haplogroups associated with NA.

DNATribes is indicating they CAN associate a testee with certain tribes.
How much confidence is there in the community in their results and
conclusions?

At 09:20 PM 7/25/2007, Roberta J. Estes wrote:
>Hi Georgia,
>
>I have been traveling and am now home facing hundreds of e-mails. Ana
>has experienced a hard drive crash, so she is struggling for sure.
>
>No, in most cases, we cannot narrow any of the dna tests to a specific
>tribal connection. The one exception to that is the group that Ana is
>working with, the Taino tribal affiliated group, but Ana would have to
>be the one to discuss this further. Notice the hesitation in my answer
>and the words "in most cases", because just like with any other DNA
>testing, sometimes you DO match someone very closely within a specific
>tribe, and then you can make a tentative identification.
>
>I don't want to discourage anyone from testing. The more people who
>test and do return results indicating Native American haplogroups,
>specifically if they know of a specific tribal affiliation, the closer
>we will become to being able to positively identify individuals with
>specific tribes. We need this ongoing testing, because without it, we
>will NEVER be able to associate results with a specific tribe.
>
>Orin, please do encourage your participant to test, and if his results
>indicate Native American Ancestry, please ask him to join our ongoing
>Native American geographic and haplogroup projects. We welcome
>everyone with Native American haplogroups and are glad to help them
>understand their results.
>
>Roberta Estes
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>[mailto:] On Behalf Of GKBopp
>Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:13 PM
>To:
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Native American Testing
>
>I've been waiting for a concise response from an "expert" here to
>Orin's question and am very surprised at the silence. (Have there been
>server
>problems?) So, I'm tossing out this answer in the hope that others
>with more info will correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> > Have they arrived at a point with this kind of testing that they can
> > actually narrow down the NA ancestry to a specific tribal
> > connection, assuming it isn't mixed to a point it is no longer unique?
>
>I think the answer is no. It's my impression that the "tribal" tests
>have a long way to go and should be considered recreational. Hopefully
>someone here with real knowledge on this subject will expand on that.
>
>In the case of your guy who is sure of his maternal line, a test of his
>mtDNA test should result in one of the known Native American
>haplogroups (ancient ancestry). The best price for that may be through
>the Genographic Project - but he'd have to check FEMALE on the form
>when he returned it and NOT lose the code number assigned since it's
>anonymous - results are found only on their web site and with that
>code. (Genographic participants can also transfer their data for free
>to the FTDNA database and look for matches, etc. At that point they
>receive a kit # and passcode.)
>
>There are also Y haplogroups associated with Native America but this
>would work for him only if his direct male line is Native American.
>
>Amerind Founder Project admins, Dr. Ana Oquendo Pabón and Roberta Estes
>would know the answer to this question. Both are very DNA savvy! Both
>are now officially involved in the Lost Colony project and may be
>traveling right now (and perhaps temporarily unsubscribed from this
>list). You can see their email addresses at the project page link here:
>http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AmerindFoundermtDNA/
>
>I also saw this link (at http://worldfamilies.net/ )
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nativesistergroup/
>I don't know anything about these folks but I do note that in their
>intro they state:
>"(DNA testing cannot determine your tribal affiliation)"
>
>Georgia Kinney Bopp
>
> = = = =
>From: "OrinWells" <>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:56 PM
>Subject: [DNA] Native American Testing
>
> > For you folks who have been engaged in the testing of Native
> > American Ancestry, which lab seems to do the most complete and
> > reliable job in your opinions?
> >
> > What we have is a guy who is very sure his maternal line leads to NA
> > - probably Hopi or Navaho (implied by the location of his ancestors)
> > and possibly there is a connection through his grandfather who
> > always simply claimed to be of Spanish ancestry but was "dark
complected".
> >
> > Have they arrived at a point with this kind of testing that they can
> > actually narrow down the NA ancestry to a specific tribal
> > connection, assuming it isn't mixed to a point it is no longer unique?
>
>
>
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Orin R. Wells
Wells Family Research Association
P. O. Box 5427
Kent, Washington 98064-5427
<>
http://www.wells.org
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