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From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Is H2a2 the same thing as H2b? and 7028 for haplogroup H
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:17:29 -0500
References: <c71.18547f97.33dd2110@aol.com><003a01c7d16f$fc40d1f0$640fa8c0@Villandra2>


FTDNA's discussion about haplogroup H and the markers it uses to distinguish
H subclades is at
http://www.familytreedna.com/hclade2.html

It says here that "H2a - Haplogroup H2a is found most frequently in Esatern
Europe and at a low frequency in western Europe. Unlike its parent brach,
H2a's geographical distribution extends to cenral Asia". But no source.

I hope they aren't making the same stupid goof I did last week with one of
the H clades, and I think it was Dr. Loogvali who got to tell me that Y-DNA
H, found in Pakistan and India, is not mtDNA H. This would "account" for
placing H2a in central Asia without any data on H2a in Asia! I didn't
know there was a Y DNA H; now, I wonder what would be FTDNA's excuse?

They mention three papers. "Three recent papers published in Molecular
Biology and Evolution, The American Journal of Human Genetics, and Genome
Research and led by Dr. Eva-Liis Loogväli and Professor Richard Villems in
Tartu, Estonia, and Dr. Alessandro Achilli and Professor Antonio Torroni in
Pavia, Italy, and Dr. Luisa Pereira in Porto, Portugal, respectively,
represent an advance in understanding in haplogroup H, which represents
about 40% of all maternal lineages in Europe, and stretches into Western
Asia as well." I don't know if I have all of these papers. If I don't
and can't get access to them I'll be back later asking for them.



For H2, they use 7038 to reach H, 4769 to reach H2, 951 to reach H2a, and
750 to reach H2b. They do not test 1438 at all.

It is not clear if this is the same mt-DNA-H-refine test, if FTDNA toes the
mtDNA-H-refine test automatically, how they otherwise identify haplgroup H
at all, or if you have to order and pay more for it, or if there are two
different tests and this test doesn't use the same markers as the complete
sequence, which is what you are saying.

I'm also more puzzled than ever about using 7028 to identify haplogroup H.

I have 8860G and 15326G, which by other phylogenetic charts defines
haplogruop H, but at 7028, as well as at 2706, I have the CRS values. Yet
clearly I'm haplogroup H, because I have 1438G, 4769G, and 750G. You
can't clearly be H2a2 if you aren't H.

Is FTDNA using the wrong markers and not identifying who is haplogroup H, or
only correctly identifying certain people who happen to have a transition at
7028? That would sure help to account for alot of confused people asking
why FTDNA can't seem to pin it down!

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Is H2a2 the same thing as H2b?


> Thanks for clarifying (gulp). I'm going to have to chart out what you
> just said.
>
> One thing; 8860A is the CRS value, and 8860G is its transition that I ahve
> as one of two mutations that haplogroup H.
>
> Now, I've noticed that some of the notation is very puzzling. On a
> "figure
> S1" that I think is Roostalu's, could belong to someone on this list; I
> have
> 2706 and 7028 defining haplogroup H. I'm plainly H2a2, yet I have the
> CRS
> values at 2706 and 7028.
>
> Somehow when I tried to apply the letter values to these markers, on the
> same chart, I got 1438A defines H2; no, that's it's transition 1438G. I
> got 4769A defines H2a. No, that's its transition 4769G. I got 740A
> defnies H2a2. No, that's it's transition, 740G. I have 2708A and 7028C
> define haplogroup H at the CRS, and those are both the CRS values for
> those
> markers.
>
> I can't find all of the threads I took up on H2b. I had asked about a
> question you had asked about something John Rhodes said about being told
> that his H2b clade is mainly Eastern. You and I both asked the same
> question, which was, "what"?
>
> The only thing I've been able to learn about John Rhodes' testing is that
> he
> was tested at ftdna, and presumably so was his sister, we can hope. So
> I'm
> searching the ftdna web site for their esoteric knowledge about H2b and
> the
> East that the rest of us don't know.
>
> I found this on a forum, at
> http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/DK/DanishDemes-mtDNA-results-HgH.shtml#H2a,
> which appears to be a Danish DNA project;
>
> "Subclade H2a H2a is most common in eastern Europe among slavic and
> Finnish
> populations, but also occurs in western Europe."
>
>
>
> There was just one H2a clad given; V6R3Q. The three line discussion
> mentions a mtDNA-H-refine test as having told her she was H2a but no clue
> what it was based on. She has quite a number of HVR1 and HVR2 mutations,
> and I have none at all.
>
> Inquiring minds are more curious than ever. Has Finland been
> reclassified
> as belonging to Eastern Europe, or did it move? I thought that Finland
> was in northwestern Europe, and its haplogroup H people wintered in Spain
> during the last ice age, then spread northward along the coast, and the
> legacy of that is that Spanish haplogroups are common in Finland, while in
> between Spain and Finland they've been partially supplanted by incoming
> haplogroups from the East.
>
> Where did the slavic populations live before the circular migrations of
> Roman times? Linguistically they're somewhere between the Balts and the
> Germans, and geographically they're somewhere between the Balts and the
> GErmans, if a bit to the east of them. The Balts split off from the main
> Indo-European roots just after teh Indo-Aryans did, followed by teh Slavs,
> and then the German peoples. But some of those populations moved into
> eastern Europe and western Asia from Scandinavia, in the first centuries
> AD.
>
> Johnston. I got very attached to Johns.
>
> Yours,
> Dora Smith
> Austin, TX
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 5:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Is H2a2 the same thing as H2b?
>
>
>>
>>>Was the CRS really once H2b and now it's H2a2,
>>>do Roostalu and someone else disagree......
>> ------------
>> The answers are 1. maybe and 2. yes.
>>
>> Family Tree DNA still classifies the CRS as H2b when
>> they do the sub-clade testing as defined by the tree at:
>> _http://www.familytreedna.com/hclade.html_
>> (http://www.familytreedna.com/hclade.html)
>>
>> However, when FTDNA does full genomic sequencing, FGS,
>> then they switch over to Roostalu's November 2006 tree (in the
>> research article: Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the
>> Dominant Human Mitochondrial Lineage in West Eurasia..)
>> which is entirely different. Here 750A polymorphism is
>> listed as being in the H2a2 sub-clade which is exclusive
>> of the H2b category. I asked for clarification from FTDNA
>> once and the response was "I am not sure I understand how
>> one labels H2a2a without FGS." So maybe I should have asked
>> a simpler question, such as: Which sub-clade does 4769A
>> define, H2 alone or H2a? Then which sub-clade does 750A
>> usually define, H2b or H2a2? Right now we cannot
>> even post results at Mitosearch under H2a2. I guess the
>> scientific community still needs to agree on this sub-clade
>> before we can answer your question.
>> ------
>>>do the markers 4769G, 1438G, and 8860G among others
>>>differentiate H2a from H2b?
>> ------
>> It depends.
>>
>> The old H2 shows 4769A, then H2b adds 750A.
>> The new H2 shows 1438A, H2a is defined as 4769A, then
>> H2a2 includes the 750A which is found in the CRS.
>>
>> Some H2a2 groups have 8860G, others have the 8860A as
>> was the case with the "old" H2b as well. The CRS shows
>> 8860A but the St. Luke motif shows 8860G although I have
>> not seen all the coding regions myself to say for sure. The
>> Scottish variety seems to include the 8860G.
>> .
>> Roostalu's new H2b has nothing to do with the old 4769A and 750A
>> group that has been used in the past to define H2b. Roostalu's
>> H2b excludes these two polymorphisms which means just about
>> everybody who is listed as H2b at Mitosearch is listed incorrectly
>> if Roostalu's new tree is adopted. Under the new Roostalu tree
>> the 4769 polymorphism would differentiate the H2a's from the H2b's.
>> Under the old tree, the 750 defined H2b and 951 defined H2a.
>> You need to see both trees to visualize what I am saying.
>>
>> The H2a2 group includes the CRS and some haplotypes that
>> have as many as 11 differences from the CRS. It is too bad
>> the people who test at HVR1 and get the results of CRS do
>> not take their testing further to include the FGS. There must
>> be some intermediate haplotypes yet to be discovered that
>> would help to better define the phylogenetic tree. There has got
>> to be more diversity than the bloody British evolutionary
>> biologists would lead you believe. The HVR1 CRS people think they
>> represent a boring sub-clade so they give up looking further.
>>
>> If you look at GenBank for those H2a2 people who resemble
>> the CRS, there are hardly any besides the original CRS
>> mtDNA even though there are probably thousands of people who
>> have been minimally tested who should fit into a related sub-clade.
>> So, there is much work to be done to help define and categorize
>> the H2s.
>>
>
>
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