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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-07 > 1185725825


From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Is H2a2 the same thing as ... H*?
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:17:05 -0500
References: <bc6.15c96850.33ddf44a@aol.com>


Ann, you've addressed a question I asked last night - is H2a2 the same thing
as H*, and if not, what is actually the difference? But you haven't
explained why the same markers used to arrive at H2a2 are also used just as
logically to arrive at H*

If you look at Roostalu's phylogeny, then those five mutations clearly lead
in a stepwise fashion to H2b2. Yet they are also used to discern H*, and
everyone who is H* has all five mutations and no more.

Your chart shows how 1438 leads to H2, 4769 leads to H2a, 750 leads to H2a2,
and then - here's a new wrinkle. You've honestly thought of different
directionality than everyone else did.

Roostalu's charts have 8860 and 15326 leading from the CRS to H. Then 1438
leads to H2, 4769 leads to H2a, 750 leads to H2a2.

You have, from H, however we got to H, 1438 leads to H2. 4769 leads to
H2a. 750 leads to H2a2, and then, voila - 8860 and 15326 leads to - the
CRS!

Now, wait a minute. If I had teh CRS I wouldn't have five mutations that
are different from the CRS. This does not all END at teh CRS. Well,
maybe in actuality it does, but I want to know my actual subclade, which is
not the CRS.

Now, what I had noticed is that alot of people, including it seems Ian
Logan, are going in the opposite direction. They start at the CRS, and
then if you have the five mutations, 1438, 4769, 750, 8860, and 16326, you
are H* - which makes a sort of good logical sense given the truth of what
you have said below. It looks as if teh entire rest of the mtdna world is
descended from some clade defined by 1438, 4769, 750, 8860, and 16326. One
schematic chart even shows 1438, 4769, 750, 8860, and 16326, leading from
the CRS to H, and defining haplogroup H.

It is necessary to ascertain for one thing, if some people in the chain of
mutatoins between the CRS and H don't have all five mutations, and if anyone
has less than four of them.

But if you have all five mutations, are you really a subclade of H known as
H2a2, H*, or - both?

Ann, it just occurred to me. Some people who have 1438 do not have 4769.
Does everyone who has 1438 have 8860 and 15326? If so, then 8860 cannot
lead on the phylogenetic chart from 750 to the CRS.

Does everyone who has 1438 in fact have 8860, 15326, and 750, and some of
those have 4769?

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX


----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Is H2a2 the same thing as H2b?


> In a message dated 7/28/2007 7:20:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> writes:
>
>> Was the CRS really once H2b and now it's H2a2, do Roostalu and someone
>> else
>>
>> disagree, or do the markers 4769G, 1438G, and 8860G among others
>> differentiate H2a from H2b?
>
> I tried to diagram the situation in a text message, but I really needed to
> do
> it in a graphic format, so I uploaded a file to the RootsWeb Companion at
> DNA
> Heritage. It remains to be seen whether new papers will use Roostalu's
> nomenclature, which was just formally published early this year. There is
> a lot of
> literature that refers to H2b.
>
> http://www.dnaheritage.com/files/rootswebupload/H2b_or_H2a2_CRS.GIF
>
> Most people in the world will have five "mutations" at 750G, 1438G, 4769G,
> 8860G, and 15326G, including most people in haplogroup H. I put
> "mutations" in
> quotes, because the actual mutations occurred between the clan mother of
> haplogroup H and the CRS, which is just a tiny twig branching off of H.
> The CRS has
> the rare values and others have the ancestral values, but everything is
> reported in terms of *differences* from the CRS. The closer you are to the
> CRS, the
> fewer differences you will see on your report. I haven't seen anyone yet
> who
> actually matches the CRS completely.
>
> Ann Turner
>
>
>
>
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