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From: JOHN PLUMMER <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Famous DNA - the Plantagenet Y-DNA project
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:12:34 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <46B2EFAE.6070600@isc.keele.ac.uk>


Dr. Plant,

I was impressed by your mentioning Somerset, Warren, and Cornwell as three families with possible male line descents from the Plantagenets. For these are the very three families mentioned by Sir Anthony Wagner, FASG, Garter King of Arms, etc., in English Genealogy, third edition, pages 36-37. His most recent citation in that section was to a letter by Professor David H. Kelley. Kelley and Moriarty were sometime collaborators and were both also FASG's,

There is not one even tentative male line descent from the Merovingians - well, not by a reputable genealogist anyway.

Similarly, there is not one male line descent from Charlemagne; and not one male line descent from a Roman Emperor. Recently, Dutch scholar Vermaat has even cast doubt on the female line descent from Emperor Magnus Maximus claiming that Eudaf [Octavius] Hen did not marry Maximus' daughter but the widow of another Emperor. The Constantines in the Welsh pedigrees going down to the present were probably named after Emperor Constantine, but were not themselves emperors.

The Plantagenet lineage by Roderick W. Stuart (who cites Moriarty but not Kelley) in Royalty for Commoners runs:

1. Name Unknown (perhaps Bodilon), an Austrasian, Neustrian or Burgundian nobleman said to descend from Saint Liutvin. [Kelley adds that St Liutvin was son of Count Gerwin "of Senatorial dignity," thus presumably of paternal Roman descent]
2. Guerin, Count of Poitiers, died 677.
3. Lambert, seen in Hesbaye 706-725.
4. Robert, Count of Hesbaye, born about 700, living 750. [Kelley notes that this Lambert and his father Robert are either the same as the two in Capetian pedigree or closely related)
5. Guerin, Count in the Thurgovie 754 - 772, died 20 May 772.
6. Bouchard "the Constable," Minur Dominicur in Corsica.
7. Aubri "the Burgundian," Count of Fezensac.
8. Bouchard, Prefect of the Royal Hunt.
9. Name Unknown (perhaps Geoffrey).
10. Aubri "Dux," living in 886 when he witnessed the charter of Odo, Abbot of St Martin.
11. Geoffrey, Viconte of Orleans, Count in the Gatinais, occurs 933-942, witnessed the charter of Hugh the Great of France 939.
12. Aubri, Count in the Gatinais, Vicomte d'Orleans, occurs 957-966.
13. Geoffrey, Count in the Gatinais, occurs 975-987.
14. Aubri, Count in the Gatinais, occurs 990.
15. Geoffrey III "Ferreol," Count in the Gatinais and Chateau-Landon, living 990.
16. Geoffrey "Ferreol" (II of Chateau-Landon), Count in the Gatinais, born about 1004, died 1043/1046.
17. Fulk IV "Rechin," Count of Anjou, born 1043, died 14 April 1109.
18. Fulk V "le Jeune," Count of Anjou, King of Jerusalem, born 1092, died 10 November 1143.
19. Geoffrey V Plantagenet.

John Plant <> wrote:
John,

I am not familiar with the Moriarty paper that you mention. However, is
this about one of those proposed lines of descent from the Merovingians?
If so, my own impression is that there is considerable skepticism about
such lines; but, as you say, it would be interesting if a Y-DNA test
could be found.

A general comment is that anyone who believes they have a noble line of
descent tends to be reluctant to have it tested - they have much to lose
and little to gain unless they have sufficient integrity to be genuinely
interested in sound evidence of the truth. This problem is in addition
to the usual one of talking strangers into taking a DNA test.

Incidentally, there is a bit of related discussion of lines involving
Plantagenet and Capet on the Plantagenet Genealogy forum, such as at:

http://genforum.genealogy.com/plantagenet/messages/764.html

but this is not a purely male line of descent. I note that you refer to
a "common male line". I should be interested in further details, if you
have them readily to hand.

John


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