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From: David Faux <>
Subject: [DNA] Non - Frisian S21 Haplotypes
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:03:37 -0700 (PDT)


Eric Goethe wrote:

I think this is actually yet another wake-up call to all those who have uncritically accepted the word of SNP purveyors, who themselves exhibit intense personal, some might say `cimbric` interest, in alleging their own SNP is PROVABLY restricted only to certain regions, peoples, tribes of antiquity, and their descendants.

As some of us have suggested from the beginning,...instead of accepting the word of those making some very definitive claims, you would be wise to FIRST demand some published study and VERIFICATION before meekly accepting any such claims, including that S21 originates singularly in scandinavian or frisian climes, and that given percentages of those modern populations ALL exhibit S21 by large margins / percentages of 2/3 - 3/4,etc, or more...

Moral of the story... Claims that sound too good to be true usually are. Show me the S21 distribution study based upon COMPANY OR INDEPENDENT-FUNDED solid scientific principle and design, not mere observation of results from the guys who already took a 12 marker test THEY PAID FOR themsleves,and then later upgraded to new SNP`s on their own after being told their 24/11 or 23/11 ``looks cimbric``. This merely self selects to establish the
results you predict or claim in advance, as those who are outside the claimed modal are far less inclined to seek the new SNP.

____________________________________________________________

List:

Alas due to the Archives being down since Sunday I have been out of the loop for many days (being a modified lurker). The above diatribe appeared this morning and is so rife with misinformation and personal digs I feel compelled to respond.

First, I "purvey" very little these days. Anything I used to do in the commercial arena is being transfered to the UK as quick as circumstances will allow.

Second my 90 page study of the Cimbri (using historical, archaeological, and genetic data) will ultimately stand or fall of its own merits or lack of same but come what may has shed new light on the subject.

Third, I would suggest that some people read recent postings before they end up with foot in mouth disease. Myres et al. (2007), which is actually a study orchestrated by Peter Underhill, reported on the percentages of S21 (called M405 in the paper) across a broad spectrum of European countries. This paper has already been discussed on this List but obviously some points bear repetition. A little simple math using their Table 4 (looking only at R1b3 - R1b1c in each country) shows the following percentages of S21 / M405:

Holland = 65
Ireland = 07
France = 14
Denmark = 49
Germany = 43
Italy = 09
Switzerland = 23 and so on.

I had reported over a year ago that a study we did of Friesland (northern Holland) showed over 70% S21; and that Norway was over 60% S21. The Frisian haplotype is only a common subset of S21 - the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH) and everything from soup to nuts being seen at the haplotype level.

The Myres study confirms what I have said all along, that the "hotspot" for S21 is Scandinavia and particularly northern Germanic areas, with numbers dropping percipitously towards the Alps and to the west.

Before this study came out, based on very preliminary data, I predicted that S28, not S21, would be the dominant R1b clade in Baden and Bavaria in Germany as well as Switzerland and Northern Italy and adjacent areas of France (the Celtic heartland). The above data is consistent with this hypothesis (although R1b1c* could well have a strong showing) - which will of course be tested by our group or someone else in the very near future.

David K. Faux.




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