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From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Non - Frisian S21 Haplotypes
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:33:27 -0300
References: <936257.67957.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <936257.67957.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


Actually Michael I believe the paper proves nothing new.
It just highlights many things already said here.

Since you have a background in Sicily, it is probably
important to you to find an explanation supporting
your understanding of your roots. If you recall, before
S21 came out we discussed Sicily having a 23/11 spike.
I believe the discussion about the strong settlements
there by the Normans explained a lot.

I do believe that key to all of this is how S21+, or its
corresponding Frisian like haplotypes, spread. I
believe that norm for the ancients should be a more radial
pattern - physical barriers kept in mind. Since then us
humans have a tendency to leap frog all over the place.
Australia has a lot of R1b. Does one suggest that it originated
there? Of course not, because we have a historical record of
mass migration from the British Isles to Australia. We
also know of the wall of other haplogroups (in high
density) between Autralia and western Europe. Together
the obvious is that R1b in Australia (as an isolate) came
mostly from the British Isles. Sicily, as another isolate,
can be treated in like manner given the historical record.

The historical record of migrations from the area
Ken pointed out (Netherlands to south west Denmark),
together with the distribution of S21+, does favour Ken's
bet somewhat. However, if Frisia was the epicenter
for the spread of S21+ one would expect the Baltic
Sea to have been favourable for its spread. Yet the
numbers seem to drop off quicker than one would expect.
I once referenced a postulated topographic map of Doggerland
which showed the major tributaries (one being an extending on up
to western Norway and another down the English Channel). To me, if
one was looking for the ideal radial spread then an epicenter
in Doggerland would account well for numbers in Norway, Frisia
and southern England - these being beachfronts as the
lands receded under the North Sea. The postulated age of S21+
discussed here also allows for a Dogger scenario.

All in all, this is just how I am seeing things. My jest about
the dredge highlights that I don't think we'll get any proof
for it. After all, who would spend that kind of money looking
for bones and stones. Too bad gold wasn't more fashionable
in this area back then!

Best wishes!

Peter A. Kincaid
Fredericton, NB, Canada

P.S. I prefer north European versus Frisian. I marches
better with the Maglemosian culture.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Maddi" <>
To: "Genealogy-DNA List" <>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Non - Frisian S21 Haplotypes


> Peter Kincaid wrote:
>
> I'll bet it was Dogger DNA. Sorry, but I
> don't have a dredge to help out.
>
> My reply:
>
> Sigh... Sometimes things can get very parochial on
> this list. A scientific study has just been published
> showing that that a band from England, through the
> Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and Poland has high
> levels of S21.
>
> According to Peter, this must prove that the origin of
> that S21 is southwest England and that it spread to
> what's now the north coast of Europe from the
> Netherlands to Poland, via the ancient land connection
> known as Doggerland. Of course, as he notes above, the
> proof is all under the North Sea. So he has no
> archaelogical or other physical proof, but it just
> must be true.
>
> Well, I have a Frisian haplotype and am S21+, but my
> ancestry is from Sicily. It's obvious to me that what
> most people call Frisian S21 and Peter chooses to
> believe is actually Doggerland S21 is actually
> Sicilian S21. Don't you see that the origin of
> so-called Frisian or Doggerland (take your pick) S21
> is Sicily? An ancient mariner culture, based in
> Sicily, travelled to northern Europe and settled along
> the north coast. I don't have any physical or
> archaelogical proof for this, but I know this is true.
>
> Until we have some proof of either Doggerland or
> Sicily being the true origin of S21, as found in
> northern Europe, why don't we just agree to refer to
> it as "Frisian" or "north European" S21, as that seems
> to be its present hotspot among living populations.
>
> Mike Maddi

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