GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-08 > 1186852677
From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Native Brit S21 (was Pict R1b?)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:17:57 -0500
4,000 to 5,000 years ago corresponds to the invasions of the shaft hole
battle axe people - also known as corded ware. I'm working on them as
their distribution seems to rather approximate that of mtDNA H2a2, which
originated in the East, possibly in hte Caucasus to Black Sea region.
Their distribution reached to eastern France going due east, but to the
coast going through the Netherlands and Denmark, and well into Scandinavia.
Since they came from what became teh Indo-European homeland beginning a
thousand years after the dispersion of Black Sea farmers who'd learned to
ride horses onto the steppes, they would have spoken Indo-European type
languages, which would tend to cause Indo-European languages to disperse
throughout Europe 2000 years before the Indo-Europeans proper "dispersed"
(whatever that actually means). This would also help explain why pockets
of non-Indo-European speaking people in Spain might have Neolithic rather
than Ice Age origins.
H2a2 could also have been carried out of the Near East/ Ukrainian region by
Neolithic farmers, if it had dispersed from teh Caucasian area between the
ice ages and lived in European as well as Caucasian refugia during the last
ice age. Those Neolithic farmers had to disperse into the Ukraine area in
order to follow the major river valleys into Europe.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo W. Little" <>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 7:17 AM
Subject: [DNA] Native Brit S21 (was Pict R1b?)
> See http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~geneticgenealogy/GD12vs13.PNG
> for a comparison of genetic distances of R1b haplotypes with DYS492=13 vs
> DYS492=12 (i.e. S21+ and S21-) from their respective modals.
> It would seem there have been two major expansions of S21+ in the past
> 5000 years.
> The latest appears to have been 2500 to 3000 years ago. This may
> correspond to the "Frisian" subclade of S21 now found in northwest Europe.
> The English Channel was more of a superhighway than a barrier, so an
> expansion of S21 in northwest continental Europe would naturally have
> spread to England in this period.
> 56% of R1b DYS492=13 has DYS390=23; only 7% of R1b DYS492=12 has
> DYS390=23. We can, therefore, use DYS390=23 to track S21 distribution.
> R1b haplotypes in "Blood of the Isles" (B.C. Sykes, 2006 ) show the
> highest percentage of DYS390=23 in south and southwest England (rather
> than in East Anglia, for example). See
> No doubt, the Belgae, Anglo-Saxon, and Viking migrations brought more S21
> to England, though an S21 expansion 2500-3000 years ago may have been more
> There also appears to have been an earlier expansion of S21 around 4000
> to 5000 years ago. This may be the period in which S21 established itself
> in northern Europe, and/or pushed into southeast Europe (and accounts for
> high-GD haplotypes in Sicily, et al).
> The origins of S21 may remain a mystery, though I feel it was already
> widespread by the Younger Dryas. The present distribution of S21+ and
> S21- in Europe may be due more to founder effects within S21+ and S21-
> and later migrations rather than to origins.
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