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From: JOHN PLUMMER <>
Subject: [DNA] I1a Geraldines in Wales from Walter FitzOther 1085 AD
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 15:45:29 -0700 (PDT)


In a previous post I expressed my opinion that ysearch WBEHQ FitzGerald was a descendant of the 11th century Walter FitzOther. WBEHQ only comprises 12 markers: 13-22-14-10-13-14-11-14-11-12-11-28. Since then I've noticed two online haplotypes purported to be from these Norman Barons. There is one for Walter FitzOther in the West Wales ftdna project. Ysearch U7MDP Barron is supposed to represent the original Norman Baron FitzGerald himself. These two only differ from WBEHQ in having 16 instead of 14 for DYS 388.

The publication in 1993 of volume two of The Development of Welsh Heraldry by Michael Powell Siddons reveals that a member of the Irish Geraldines is supposed to have been transplanted to Merionethshire in Wales in the 13th century. A look at the DNA databases and Welsh genealogical tomes produces evidence that seems to support this.

Osbwrn Wyddel was of Llanaber, Merionethshire in 1293. Wyddel apparently means "Irishman." Siddons states that he was "Said to have been a member of the FitzGerald family, and sometimes given as Osbwrn ap Gwythlach, "Earl of Desmond."" Siddons derives Vaughan of Corsygedol, Merionethshire; Yale of Plas-yn-Ial, Bryneglwys, Denbighshire; Jones of Llanfair Dyffrin Clwyd, Denbighshire (the neighboring county); Morgan of Celli Iorwerth, Trawsfynydd, Merionethshire; Wynn of Ynysymaengwyn, Tywyn, Merionethshire; Wynn of Glyn Cywarch, Llanfihangel-y-traethau, Merionethshire; and Wynn of Gresford, Denbighshire from Osbern Wyddel. I1a entries for the surnames Wynn, Morgan, Jones, and Vaughan are found in ysearch. There is no entry whatsoever for Yale in ysearch. This is a pity because Thomas Yale of this line was a founder of New Haven, Connecticut in 1638 (Yale University was named after his nephew). Wynn, Morgan, and Jones are 12/12 matches. Ysearch only derives Wynn from a
particular place in Wales - Caerwys in Flintshire, just above the Denbighshire border.

The Family Tree DNA West Wales (or Wales West?) DNA project has a Pugh from Brithdru, Merionethshire, Wales that seems to be identical with ysearch YKF34 Pugh, where the origin is only given as "Wales." Pugh is a 12/12 match with Wynn, Morgan, and Jones. At 25 markers it only differs from Wynn of Caerwys in having 29 instead of 30 at DYS 449. Jones and Morgan also have 29. I believe that YKF34 Pugh best represents the DNA of Osbern Wyddel.

Ysearch BNU7X is the "Modal for Hg I1a of Welsh/Irish Sea surname proto-group." It might as well be called Osbwrn Wyddel for it matches YKF34 Pugh 25/25 and 35/35 (it is missing 2 markers on the 37 marker panels). It has 56 markers total. The only difference from Pugh is DYS 490. Pugh has 13, BNU7X has 12.

Welsh Family Coats of Arms by Robert J.C.K. Lewis says that "Osbern" Wyddel "is thought to be the son of John Fitz Thomas Fitz Maurice Fitz Gerald, first lord of Decries and Desmond, Ireland." Lewis goes on to say "He fled Ireland after killing a high ranking noble and brought a troop of Irish cavalry to Wales ca. 1240 and offered his services to Llewelyn the Great" for which he "was granted his land at Berllys, Corsygedol, Merionethshire." 1240 was the year of Llewelyn the Great's death. Two King Llewelyn's were almost certainly confused. Osbwrn Wyddel almost certainly served Llewelyn the Last, King of Wales 1246 to 1282.

John Plummer

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