Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-09 > 1190058382

From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The Jewish Ancestry Question
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>


I appreciate your reluctance to speculate regarding
R1b1*, as well as your willingness to acknowledge that
much cannot be ruled in or out right now without
further data.

Still, that raises the question of how it can thus be
determined that the origin of cluster 4 is "consistent
with Levantine origin." I just don't see how one
reaches that conclusion when so little is known and
the group apparently isn't restricted to those of
Ashkenazi origin, but about 25% appears to be of
non-Jewish European origin and TMRCA appears to be
right about the time that the Diaspora began in

Also, why isn't an African/Congo origin being
postulated rather than a Middle Eastern origin?

Any thoughts about the possibility of gene conversion
in these three disparate and very isolated groups?

Ellen Coffman

--- Vincent Vizachero <> wrote:

> Ellen,
> There is so much about R1b1* that we don't know that
> I'm leery of
> commenting at length. Until we have really good
> haplotype data
> from the Levant and Central Asia, which we don't at
> the moment, I
> doubt we can rule much in or out.
> I will say that the MRCA for the Ashkenazi members
> of R1b1* Cluster 4
> appears to be recent: 750-1,000 years ago. There
> are currently two
> members of Cluster 4 whose ethnic/religious status I
> am less certain
> of and whose MRCA with the Ashkenazi members is
> about 2,000 years.
> One of them (from Greece) lists in his ysearch entry
> a legend of
> Judean origin, but I don't know the basis for that
> claim.
> So even though the split between Cluster 4 and the
> other clusters of
> R1b1 appears to have been quite a long time ago, the
> MRCA for the
> cluster lived very recently.
> My stance is that all the available data is
> consistent with a
> Levantine origin for the Ashkenazi members of R1b1*
> Cluster 4. All in
> all, that's not a very strong statement and I
> wouldn't want to make
> it stronger at this point.
> On

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