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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-10 > 1192062112


From: "Leo W. Little" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b DYS458=14 null439 connection
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:21:52 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <e169bf440710101627s7d516f25wc7c896fdc03c5b05@mail.gmail.com>


Doyle,

Hopefully, you'll hear from EA shortly about your S21 and S26 results, though I suspect you'll be positive for both SNPs.

After all, http://www.familytreedna.com/public/KING_FamilyTree_YDNA_Project shows you have a "blue 12" for DYS439, which is FTDNA's shorthand for indicating they were unable to determine a value for the marker and assigned the modal value of 12 instead.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~geneticgenealogy/null439p.htm shows a presentation by Taylor Edwards at an FTNDA conference where he shows the apparent null allele at DYS439 to be the results of the SNP which EA has since called S26.

See also http://www.familytreedna.com/public/null439/ for all the latest information.

RG/DNA-Anc, SMGF, and DNAH use a different set of primers than FTDNA. They will never "detect" a null allele at DYS439 even if the participant has the S26 SNP.

Folks with null439s from FTNDA have been shown to mainly have a "12" at DYS439 when also tested by these other lab (though there has been one line with a "13").

The S26 SNP only occurs in about a half of one percent of R1b's, so the vast majority of folks with a "12" at DYS439 will not have S26. Only a positive results from EA or "blue 12s" at DYS439 by FTDNA indicate the SNP.

Most of the null439s with known origins are from south and central England. However, there are a few null439s from the borders region with Scotland (though none in Ireland or Wales).

There are a half dozen null439s with known origins in Germany. That seems to indicate the null439 mutation occured on the continent, and came to England with various Germanic migrations over the past 2000+ years.

There is one null439 with confirmed origins in central Norway and another with probable origins in northwest Spain (which could also be the result of later Germanic migrations).

34 null439s have been tested for 67 markers, and all have DYS492=13, the characteristic signature of S21. However, unlike most S21 in England and Gemany, the majority of null439s have DYS390=24.

There's a lot of uncharted territory on the Y chromosome, and plenty of locations where more SNPs could be hiding. Hopefully, more will come to light and help define further R1b subclades. Of course, getting folks to go back and test is another matter.

Regards, Leo


Doyle King <> wrote:
Leo,
I am still waiting on EA to send me the results of my test. They have had
the sample since June 23, 07. Hopefully it iwill not be long. I know you
have done done much research on S-26 null 439. Have you drawn any
conclusion about the geographic location of S-26 who are S21 positive and
those who are not S21 positive. Do you feel there are more SNPs hiding
downstream of S 26. Since null 439 is a FTDNA , others who tested with
other companies and are 12 at 439, are all of those S-26 positive.

Doyle

On 6/17/07, Leo W. Little wrote:
>
> I'm late to the R1b DYS458=14 discussion party. Hope everyone hasn't left
> already.
>
> the R1b WILHITE, HARTLEY, and CLARK with DYS458=14 that Anne mentions all
> have nulls at DYS439. The null is due to SNP S26 (L1) in the flanking
> region of the marker.
>
> S26 is downstream of S21. Folks with "null439s" have DYS492=13 (as does
> 95% of S21), but unlike S21, most null439s have DYS390=24. S21 defines
> R1b1c9a.
>
> Nulls at DYS439 are listed with a "12" in blue font in FTDNA public
> project pages and on GAP "copy & paste" pages. Unfortunately, this only
> applies to folks tested directly by FamilyTreeDNA and not to folks tested by
> the Genographic project.
>
> Set http://www.ysearch.org/search_search.asp?uid=&freeentry=true to
> DYS393=13, DYS19=14, DYS426=12, DYS388=12, DYS458=14, DYS459a=9, DYS455=11,
> and DYS454=11 and search 0 mismatches at 8 markers for probable R1b with
> DYS458=14.
>
> Without knowing the null439 or "blue 12" status, it's not possible to say
> if any of the matches (3JMFF, 59UP8, 6WK9T, HX43M, V8A4D, WYNHV, Z9HCZ,
> WRH2V, JACCW, PPA3G, RYH5V, Z7B8B, AKHSD, 752NM, 9sbwe, EBHXP, F2BNU, HTVDE.
> SWY2S, NJ7QN) are in the R1b1c9a subclade or not.
>
> If anyone knows of other R1b's with DYS458=14 and a "blue 12", please
> contact me.
>
> Further comments are also appreciated.
>
> Best Regards, Leo
>
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