From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Dividing I1b1-Dinaric
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:20:46 -0700
References: <149561.14374.qm@web88110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
I periodically scan the FTDNA project I site for new haplotypes. Right now
with the flux in haplogroup names and tree, the SNP designations take on
added value as the more stable identifiers.
But beggars can not be choosers, so I find that because the new 67 marker
haplotypes have slowed to a trickle, I am adding 37 and even 25 marker
examples to my more interesting and frontierish clade collections.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Kipp" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Dividing I1b1-Dinaric
> Thank you for that reminder Ken. I expect you have that set of results as
> well from the I group at FT DNA. Some have done subclade testing and of
> course FT DNA still lists them as I1b (P37.2 +) instead of the new
> nomenclature I1b1 (P37.2+) of ISOGG.
>
> Elizabeth (Blake) Kipp
>
> Ken Nordtvedt <> wrote: It should be remembered that
> I1b1-Isles and I1b1-Dinaric are wildly separate
> clades. They parted from their common ancestor sometime back during the
> LGM
> in my opinion.
>
> In my research database I have well over 100 I1b1 (P37+) haplotypes, most
> 67
> markers long, divided into the separate Dinaric, Western, and Isles
> clades.
> If I1b1 is not segregated in that manner, confusion will reign. Those
> clades have been separated for many thousands of years and simply lack
> separate SNPs at the moment because less interest has been given to this
> haplogroup by the labs and customers. But this lack of interest could not
> stop Time from doing its thing --- separating the founders' haplotypes
> from
> each other. Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Elizabeth Kipp"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Dividing I1b1-Dinaric
>
>
>> Oh that is interesting, my paternal line (I1b1-Isles Ysearch 36Q9Z) has
>> DYS448 as 19 and DYS449 as 30. Of course the fit for the earliest markers
>> in this sample is poor to the Isles but the latter part fits much better.
>>
>> Looking at the I haplogroup geographical study on FT DNA, in 58 samples
>> there are for DYS 448 - 3 (18), 12 (19), 28 (20), 4 (21) and 1 (22); for
>> DYS 449 - 2 (26), 11 (27), 22 (28), 10 (29), 6 (30), 4 (31), 3 (32) and 1
>> (33). There are 20 I1b designated samples in the total study of which DYS
>> 448 - 3 (18), 3 (19), 7 (20) and 1 (21) and for DYS 449 - 1 (27), 1 (28),
>> 3 (29), 3 (30), 3 (31) and 3 (32).
>>
>> This I study is growing nicely on FT DNA as there are a total of 86
>> samples of various I with 32 having 67 markers.
>>
>> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup%20I%20Y-DNA%20Project%20Web%20Site/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on
>>
>> Elizabeth (Blake) Kipp
>>
>> Ken Nordtvedt wrote: Some new clades emerge from
>> a database of extended haplotypes like gangbusters, while others slowly
>> take form out of a San Juan Islands fog bank with the radar not working.
>> Dividing I1b1-Dinaric (P37+) is like the latter. Some time ago I
>> mentioned that this haplogroup had two parts based on DYS448 being 19 or
>> 20, with the former perhaps being dominant south of the Danube and the
>> latter north of the Danube. I can't say this geographical division is
>> getting stronger with additional data, but other differences are.
>>
>> I1b1-Dinaric with 19 at DYS448 has a DYS449 distribution with mean less
>> than 30 repeats
>> I1b1-Dinaric with 20 at DYS448 has a DYS 449 distribution with mean
>> greater than 32 repeats
>>
>> How's that for thin ice --- a clade taking form based on such a fast
>> mutator? But I1b1-Dinaric is very young (a mystery in itself), so this
>> changes the rules a little bit.
>>
>> If we look at all the markers it seems evident that I1b1-Dinaric with 20
>> at DYS448 has more random mutations, indicating that this segment of the
>> haplogroup is older than the part with DYS448 = 19.
>>
>> I believe that one of the more interesting migratory stories in Europe
>> will emerge when we better understand I1b1-Dinaric.
>>
>> Ken
>>
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>>
>> Elizabeth (Blake) Kipp, PLCGS
>> Guild of one-name studies #4600 - LAMBDEN, PINCOMBE and SIDERFIN
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>
>
>
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>
> Elizabeth (Blake) Kipp, PLCGS
> Guild of one-name studies #4600 - LAMBDEN, PINCOMBE and SIDERFIN
> Webpage: http://ca.geocities.com/ type="text/javascript">DisplayMail('rogers.com','kippeeb');/
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