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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-11 > 1195437708


From: "Harold Cross" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Berbers and Mennonites
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:01:48 -0700
References: <473FBC9B.8000205@comcast.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bonnie Schrack
To: Tim Janzen
Cc: ; 'Harold Cross' ; 'Glen Penner'
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Berbers and Mennonites


Hi all,

Tim Janzen wrote:
It wouldn't at all surprise me if the Penner progenitor left Spain for some reason or another and went to the Low Countries sometime before 1500 or so. There is a nice summary about the origins of the Penner surname in Horst Penner's book Die ost- und westpreussischen Mennoniten. There are a number of original forms of the surname Penner. One is Bender and another is Pennaerts. There was a Dietrich Bender who was banned from Worms, Germany in 1527 because he was a Mennonite.


Interesting! I have the impression that Bender may be among the Swiss Anabaptist names -- is that right, Hal? I guess they weren't usually Amish, but the name is quite common in U.S. Mennonite communities, I think.

Obviously it would be worth comparing the Y-DNA of various Benders with that of the Penners, to see if there are any matches. If not, that could point toward the Pennaerts as the origin.

There was a Lysken Pennaerts who was burned at the stake in Amsterdam in 1573.



Wow -- just for being an Anabaptist? I thought the Dutch were generally among the more tolerant people, somehow. Sorry I am so ignorant of Dutch Mennonite history.

I don't think it is clear at this point whether the West Prussian and Russian Mennonites with the surname Penner were descendents of a Bender or a Pennaert.


It would very interesting to look into that. I guess Glen might be interested in pursuing the question?

The last time I checked for matches to the Penner haplotype in the SMGF database in July the closest match was to a Mr. Correa Quezada whose ancestors were from Chile, matching 41 of 43 markers. I presume that this man's ancestors came from Spain.



That makes sense!

Is there a summary somewhere of the E3b modal haplotypes other than E3b1b? If so, where? It would be nice is there was one web site that listed all of the major modals for the various Y haplogroup subclades.


Well, I would start with the E3b project at FTDNA, from what I hear they have a very dynamic project. They have been bugging me to get my E3b Hoovers to join it. Someone from that project should be able to help you. I think there are a lot of very knowledgeable people working on E3b.

Bonnie







----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bonnie Schrack [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 9:19 AM
To:
Cc: Harold Cross; Tim Janzen
Subject: Re: [DNA] Berbers and Mennonites



Robert wrote:



....I find it curious that the Penner haplotype is in the E3b1b M81+
subclade, a subclade common among the Berbers of North Africa and in about
44% of all E3b in Spain. How does one's line get from a Berber ancestry
to Mennonite? I wonder if the Penner line didn't somehow come out of Spain
during the expulsions in the fifteenth century with a name change of some
sort. Just thinking out loud.


Fascinating thought, Robert. Can you really tell just by their haplotypes that they are E3b1b? As co-admin of the other Anabaptist project, I'm particularly interested. Could Tim tell us if the Penners are one of the families whose ancestry is from the Low Countries, as I suspect? There were a considerable number of Spaniards who came to that region during the time when they ruled it. A member of the rare J1b clade is from Belgium; the other J1bs who have been found by FTDNA are from Iberia (two are in the J project). This Spanish-Netherlands/Belgium connection is how I would envision it having happened. The Mennonites who originated in the Low Countries are distinct from those of Swiss origin, which is why we have two different projects.

Bonnie


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