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From: Vincent Vizachero <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] RES: PLOS Genetics: admixture study of European Americans
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:20:45 -0500
References: <246baaff0711301019r44a10894if93ad9cb6137ee55@mail.gmail.com><20071130225112.C3C032D0B@socom2.uol.com.br><246baaff0712011139k7cba7fc8xc7c79a3a42b12b9b@mail.gmail.com><011b01c83452$cf573260$6400a8c0@Ken1><246baaff0712011209t2e5a3917id78fd625e1f25b54@mail.gmail.com><014a01c83457$2a1d6df0$6400a8c0@Ken1><E07BFD30-C048-4D7F-A26C-24E46320077C@vizachero.com><01c601c83472$33313c80$6400a8c0@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <01c601c83472$33313c80$6400a8c0@Ken1>


I wish I had more time for this conversation, but bed time for the
kids is at hand.

According to Margherita Mussi, in her book "Earliest Italy", the
population of the Balkans and Iberia grew quickly during the LGM but
not Italy. She does also mention continuity of artifacts, but does
so in a passing manner with little detail.

I'll try to formulate a more detailed response later.

Vince




On Dec 1, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Ken Nordtvedt wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vincent Vizachero" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] RES: PLOS Genetics: admixture study of European
> Americans
>
>
>> There were people on the Italian peninsula during the LGM. However
>> the question of whether it served as a refugium or not is up in the
>> air since, to the best of my knowledge, no one has demonstrated that
>> humans in northern or central Europe retreated there as the ice sheet
>> grew. {{{{{ In what ways has it been demonstrated that humans in
>> northern or central Europe retreated to Iberia or Balkans and not to
>> Italian peninsula? About the only thing I can think of is
>> continuity of
>> some artifacts. Are the artifacts in the Italian peninsula of the
>> LGM
>> period so different? KN }}}} In any event, memory tells me that the
>> population was smaller
>> than on either the Iberian or Balkan peninsulas. Not direct memory,
>> of course: I wasn't there then. My memory of having read a
>> monograph on the topic last year. If I can find the monograph, I'll
>> post the source.
>>
>> I am fairly confident that there is no evidence of any re-population
>> movement OUT of Italy in the post-LGM era. In fact, there is
>> archaeological evidence of people re-entering Italy from Iberia and
>> the Balkans. {{{{ My same reaction as to your 'no one into Italian
>> peninsula' comment; if they find some evidence of post-LGM folks
>> up in
>> Bavaria, for example, how would they know where they came from
>> other than
>> artifact continuity? KN }}}}} Neolithic immigrants from the Near
>> East
>> came later, of
>> course.
>>
>> Vince
> {{{{{ If the minimal Italinan peninsula refugium picture holds up,
> what
> might be the reason for that? KN Anyway, the monographs sound like
> they will
> be interesting. }}}}
>
>
>
>>
>> On Dec 1, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Ken Nordtvedt wrote:
>>
>>> That was sort of my question, bringing up such issues as whether
>>> the geology
>>> is as favorable to finding sites of that era, has it been explored
>>> for that
>>> period to the same degree, etc. I don't know; I was hoping that
>>> someone who
>>> did would come forth. If it were not used as a refugium, I would
>>> consider
>>> that as an observation almost as interesting and significant as
>>> what were
>>> the refugia. It would immediately bring up the question, why not?
>>
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