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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Germans who carry J and G (was PLOS Genetics)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:02:45 -0700
References: <cf2.21e7ff76.3494e62a@aol.com><246baaff0712151142s6e6c8f1did9b7da916961994@mail.gmail.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Havelock Vetinari" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Germans who carry J and G (was PLOS Genetics)


On 12/15/07, <> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/14/2007 12:39:50 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> R came from Asia while Haplogoup I came from the Middle East over
> 20,000 years ago, at least according to Semino. Because they came to
> Europe so long ago they don't have any close relatives outside of
> Europe.
>
>
>
> So Haplogroup I is Middle Eastern -- to quote your words above?

Yes, but it arrived in Europe over 20,000 years ago and has no close
relatives in the Middle East today.


Do you recall why Semino concluded hg I came from the "Middle East"?
Although the truth or not of that may depend on what is considered Middle
East?

No "IJ" haplotype has ever been found. J haplotypes are plentiful and seem
to have Middle East as hotspot. But J is a parallel haplogroup, not a
parent haplogroup. In the oldest clade of hg I, I1b*, there are examples
from Armenia and Georgia in the Caucasus, Turkey, and then some Greeks,
Italians, Iberians, and plenty of Eastern Europeans, some of them being
Jewish. And I1b* then is found in the rest of Europe to the British Isles,
but not Scandinavia so far. These latter haplotypes are probably mostly a
reflection of the strong bias of the databases to that part of the world.

It's not clear where hg I exactly came from; one could probably draw a
triangle of possible origin which included Caucasus to the Levant to extreme
southeast Europe. Turkey would pretty much be in the center.

We need much larger numbers of extended haplotypes from that region to see
how much hg I of what kind is indigenous to any regions outside of Europe
(using "indigenous" with fear and trembling).

Ken




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