Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-12 > 1197770141

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b1c in Relation to the New Underhill and Kivisild Paper
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 18:55:41 -0700
References: <>


You seem to believe you "know" where the defining SNP(s) for R1b1c and R1a1
sit temporally in the appropriate lists. I see nothing which indicates they
came last, though I could be overlooking something.

With regard to your M269-R1b1c comment, they only tested those 27 SNPs on 3
or 4 samples. How could you extrapolate that to mean every single R1b1c
haplotype will have the all those 27 SNPs? You don't know where M269
occured temporally in that sequence of SNP occurences in the ancestral line.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Faux" <>
To: "DNA Rootsweb" <>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 6:45 PM
Subject: [DNA] R1b1c in Relation to the New Underhill and Kivisild Paper

> Actually, the thrilling (to me, anyway) implication of Figure 7 is that if
> enough people take this kind of test that ADDITIONAL
> phylogenetic resolution may be revealed.
> Underhill and Kivisild criticize the team that undertook the analysis
> behind Figure 7 for having tested a very limited group of chromosomes
> (just 33, I think). When the number of tested chromosomes increases, the
> redundancy of the SNPs will diminish. The question is to what extent.
> ___________________________________________________________
> Vince and Ken:
> The way that I read Figure 7 is that every single M269-R1b1c will have
> the same redundant set of 27 upstream SNPs. What is not known is whether
> for example those who are R1b1* might be further resolved into subclades.
> As to the haplogroup I1a example, yes, there does not seem to be any
> order to things with M253 tacked in the middle of the list and the person
> assigned to I1 only. There is huge potential here for further definition
> and assignment to I1a subgroups with "new" SNPs. What they term I1b1 also
> looks promising.
> With R1a1 it makes me wonder whether all 13 SNPs apply to each and every
> person who has the M17 deletion. However, supposedly if you are M17 from
> anywhere you must have all of the upstream SNPs - and that seems to be
> what is depicted in this chart. There are very few R1a* individuals (but
> more in the Indian SubContinent) so I very much doubt that this listing is
> going to provide anything more other than a list of redundant SNPs,
> although, just thinking out loud, I guess it is possible that some of the
> rs#s represent subclades (the chart is confusing - at least to me) since
> there is only one person who is tested.
> David K. Faux.
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