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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-02 > 1202272347


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The Story of I1b1 (P37.2+)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 21:32:27 -0700
References: <c19.2e0fb65e.34da8a78@aol.com>


Since you insult the clades by labeling them "hypothesized", lacking SNPs,
and not in the scientific literature, I'm not sure I should respond. But
with some work I can do so; I have to cleanse the database of the surnames
as they are not in every case from public sources and privacy must be
respected, so this will take me a little time.

The haplotypes were selected by a process that every "I" haplotype found
must go somewhere; none can be thrown away (except I don't keep more than 1
haplotype from a family no matter how they stuff the databases with their
cousins). But the data must be biased to the degree that the databases are
biased; some parts of Europe are sampled more heavily than others. But that
bias affects the relative counts found of the different clades which come
from different locations. It will not distort the motif of each clade
unless there happened to be some region not sampled at all but which
contained a decent number of haplotypes of the clade. If we were talking
about I1b*, for example, whose domain extends to Turkey, Armenia, Georgia,
the databases are quite minimal and additional clades could be missed
completely right now.

In the meantime you can see the founders' haplotypes at
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net, although it sounds like you may have
already visited that file and were unhappy for some reason. Or you can find
examples of each clade's haplotypes from Ysearch and SMGF by pulling out the
unique repeat values from my spreadsheet on slow mutating markers and doing
searches for exact matches.

Ken




----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] The Story of I1b1 (P37.2+)


>
> Ken,
>
> Your post was a wonderful story. Since your four hypothesized clades
> aren't
> defined by SNPs that are documented in the scientific literature, could
> you
> post your underlying 52 STR marker data set on your web site for others
> to
> review? (i.e., the actual data and not just the deduced Founder's
> Modals)
>
> In addition, could you tell us how many samples where analyzed and how
> these
> samples in this data set were selected to ensure the sample wasn't
> biased?
> Though I would never accuse you of "cooking the books" it is easy to come
> up
> with a tight analytical story and a bulletproof haplotype tree if one is
> allowed to preselect the underlying data.
>
> Repeatability is the essence of scientific discovery.
>
> Thanks
>
> - Kevin Campbell
>
>
>
>
> **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
> (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
> 48)
>
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