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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-02 > 1202361968


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The Story of I1b1 (P37.2+)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:26:08 -0700
References: <c19.2e0fb65e.34da8a78@aol.com><003d01c86879$4744ec90$6400a8c0@Ken1><7A3832E7-A99E-474D-8E28-5EA39CAEBFF2@vizachero.com><003801c868e0$b3c0f730$6400a8c0@Ken1><C3879F7E-CE65-4751-BF02-AF51B50D559D@vizachero.com><003201c86945$e68a91c0$0d01a8c0@tuuit>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Didier Vernade" <>

I would agree that there is no absolute necessity for
> distinct refugiums but divergence is often related to some kind of
> separation.

[[[[[ I don't know why this divergence/separation connection? Consider two
brothers in I born before the LGM, 20,000 years ago. And suppose they both
have descendants today. And suppose one line of descendants of each son
just happened to live in the same tribe, valley, district, etc., side by
side from then through to now. That geographical proximity has absolutely
no impact on the unstoppable and independent mutations of the
non-recombining y chromosomes which march down to the present. What happens
in this case would be the same if one of those lines had moved to the other
side of the Earth at the time of the original brothers. The two lines will
have accumulated some huge GD between their haplotypes. "Divergence" has
nothing to do with geographical separation for this specific context. I
think this alleged connection sneaked in from autosomal genes experiencing
both mutations and selection forces. ]]]]]]






Again, although very hypothetical, it
> would be interesting that this division in 4 main branches that you
> demonstrated could correlate with 4 different refugiums [[[ 4 different
> refugiums is possible, but I don't see right now what is forcing it to be.
> We'll have to work backwards in the geographical clues of the lines as our
> databases continue to grow --- and see what develops. ]]]]]


> I think that one of the main lessons of
> the DNA testing in Europe was the formidable impact of the glaciation on
> the
> structure of the present day population. [[[[[ I totally agree. In my
> mind the main impact of those unfriendly times was to keep the ydna
> extinction rate of lines of descent extremely high, and as a result the
> ytree of that era is a sparce tree and not a thick bush. ]]]]]]]


So, no traces of "ancient" I in
> Spain ? [[[[[[ We found those several probable upstream I1b* haplotypes
> in Sardinia recently. I'm looking to Turkey and Caucasus and environs for
> the most ancient "I" ]]]]]]



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