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From: "Roberta J. Estes" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Some truth in article was Re: Answer fromAncestorsMagazine
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:13:37 -0400
In-Reply-To: <7kincaids%40primus.ca$142.154.19.142$.5E83FF626EE64B91B24FFAA1B62F5029@PeterAKincaiPC>


I disagree too. 12 markers can prove you don't share an ancestor. 12
markers with unique markers, especially when they are a unique haplogroup,
are often quite enough to determine whether or not you do in fact descend
from the same line. In some cases, you do need to expand, especially if you
are R1b1c (or now R1b1b2) or the AMH, but that is not the most of the time.
And I have never seen an unusual marker 12 marker match or unusual
haplogroup match fall apart at 25 or more markers. I have seen vanilla R1b
fall apart there of course.

So, I quite disagree and feel strongly that the usefulness of the 12 marker
test depends highly on your goals.

Roberta Estes

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Peter A. Kincaid
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 10:43 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Some truth in article was Re: Answer
fromAncestorsMagazine

Well I doubt it if you had the experience that most other group project
managers have had. Many in our project match at 12, and 25 markers and it
is only after 37 markers that some of these expand out to reveal the
different lines. How can you say that you identified those descended from
an immigrant ancestor (the term implies a person who immigrated to the New
World in the last 400 years) with 12 markers? Have you expanded all of them
out to show they remain close? We have had distinctly different immigrant
lines only one or two mutations apart after 67 markers. One can not say
whether the ancestor for these two lines was their father or a gag
grandfather.

Further selective testing of a couple of markers does not give you any
further conclusive result because you are projecting your preconceived
notions on the results. The ones you passed over could reveal mutations
marking new distinct lines you were not previously aware of.

I found 12 markers of no help in recruiting. If someone comes on board at
12 they are not likely to expand further because cost was the issue. So you
end up with tease results which, in a number of cases in our project, others
will have to pay to upgrade to get any value from. I can see the benefit to
ETNA but I stand stand by my notion that 12 marker tests are a complete
waste for genealogical purposes. There is just too much of a risk of false
positives.

Peter

P.S. Remember that genealogical value is, for the most part, different from
anthropological value.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Vick" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Some truth in article was Re: Answer from
AncestorsMagazine


> Actually, the 12-marker test is very useful for our haplogroup Q1?s in
> our VICK project. It is far from a "complete waste." We have no
> trouble identifying descendants of our immigrant ancestor with
> 12-markers, and the price makes it easier to recruit participants.
> After the 12-marker test, it is very affordable to test one or two
> additional markers at the Houston lab to nail down second and third
> generation lines for some of our participants. Those one or two
> markers often aren?t in the 25 or 37 marker panels (e.g. DYS452, GATA-A10,
DYS481 and DYS436).
>
> One size doesn't fit all, but it is nice to have the choice of a
> 12-marker test if you aren?t in a common haplogroup. Bennett Greenspan
> told me that he still offers the 12-marker test because of projects like
ours.
>
> Regards,
>
> Larry
>
> YCC2008 Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1b (P36.2+; M378+) Full Sequence mtDNA
> Haplogroup H2a2
>
> Ysearch & mitosearch: XXGV9
> Ymatch: jlvick
> Facebook: James Larry Vick
>
> Guild of One-Name Studies Member
> 4679http://www.one-name.org/profiles/vick.html
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Peter A. Kincaid <>
> Subject: [DNA] Some truth in article was Re: Answer from Ancestors
> Magazine
>
> It is a complete waste:
>
> 2) for companies to offer low resolution tests (FTDNA knows their 12
> marker test is pretty useless but they still sell it).


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