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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-05 > 1211232435


From: "David Weston" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:27:15 -0300
References: <018701c8b9dc$c8cbeb10$6400a8c0@Ken1><ea3bd9560805191258n7d57e52an52752fc51f79edc4@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <ea3bd9560805191258n7d57e52an52752fc51f79edc4@mail.gmail.com>


David,

What evidence is there that S28 or S21 for that matter did not expand so rapidly? I am not really
taking sides, just looking at both sides of the discussion. However, if man was able to expand out
of their Ice Age refuges 12,000 yrs ago to repopulate almost all of Europe in the space of several
thousand years, I have no problem with the idea of a clade like S28 or S21 expanding as it has the
last 3,000. We know migration was occuring in the Bronze Age, as evidenced by the "Amesbury
Archer", who lived around 2300 BC and whose grave was found near Stone Henge:

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/bronze_age.html

He is believed to have come from what is now Switzerland, or Germany or Austria near Switzerland.
This man travelled a long way in his lifetime. Now, if he could be tested for S28 that would
support your arguement for an earlier SNP founding age.

Regardless, correct me if I misunderstand but you also seem to be assuming that the expansion of S28
occured immediately or very soon after its founding. Much of the European geographic distribution
we see today could well have occured in the last 2,000 yrs in the Migration period and other more
recent events in the last 500 yrs. Few participants in your S28 database have MDA's reliably traced
back beyond 500 yrs and I expect most can only go back no more than 300 yrs so we can't say what the
distribution of S28 was like before that. S28 could well have staid isolated in it central European
enclave for 1,000 or more years before expanding out. I would say the same thing for S21.

David Weston.

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of
David Faux
Sent: May 19, 2008 4:58 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff

Ken:

Try as I might I cannot see anything in the archaeological record which would mirror an origin let
alone an expansion at this time. This was The Bronze Age, when Europe was extensively settled by a
million (don't quote me on this) or more people. The idea that there was one fellow circa 1800 BC
who spawned the whole S28+ gang just does not seem to wash. I am willing to bet good money that one
day in the mountains around the Swiss lakes they will find a series widely scattered male skeltons
from the Mesolithic who will test S28+, and with very different YSTR values.

The bottom line is that for any computation to "work" it has to fit with the broader context of what
was going on in Europe at the time. Certainly we know that the genetic estimate of the Niall and
Genghis phenomena tallies well with what is known historically. In the earlier years you would have
to take into account multiple back mutations (e.g., I have DYS390=25 and all my cousins have 24 - my
line will likely back mutate at some time down the way). Generation time is a key ingredient and my
take on it is that life was short and generation intervals were also short. Anyway, your efforts
are appreciated, I just don't think that we have yet "arrived".

David K. Faux.

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