GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-05 > 1211324819


From: Alan R <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 23:06:59 +0000 (GMT)


Re: elites, If elites were not involved, then the R1b folk must have had a degree of mobility (including maritime travel) that would be unexpected of lower status people if we are to explain their present spread (indeed often dominance) of even the furthest flung islands of Europe. Also, if these people had a MRCA in the later Bronze Age they would have been arriving as aliens in areas with significant existing populations and heavily armed local tribal elites. Their many surviving bronze weapons and large scale monuments (including later phases of Stonehenge for instance) show the existence of these elites. If these hypothetical R1b settlers were not an elite themselves,they certainly would have had to contend with existing ones. It is pretty clear that by the later Bronze Age very powerful elites existed that were probably more powerful than those of the succeeding Iron Age ones when the new metal was ubiquitous and could not be controlled by
elites. The need for rare bronze and tin (there is a limited distribution of these ores in Europe) for tools in the Bronze Age made the emergence of elites controlling this inevitable. Every piece of metalwork shows the influence of the interacting and trading elites of Bronze Age Europe. In later Celtic law a man had no rights beyond his own tribal territory and its clear you could not just float about and settle where you wished without either defeating or getting the blessing/protection of the existing local elite.

I can see archaeology is taking a bit of a bashing here but don't underestimate it. The database of sites, material, dating evidence and various types of analysis of the data are light years ahead of what was known a generation ago. Hundreds of sites of most periods have been excavated and clear patterns of finds are being repeated again and again with only very rare surprises. In other words the basic picture of cultural change and timing and direction of influences is now clear for most periods. Compulsory funding of archaeological digs by developers over the last 10-15 years has led to an incredible increase in the amount of excavated sites and it is very very doubtful that a major phase of settlement in later prehistory has slipped through the net. Please note as well I keep saying I have a totally open mind on this. I have tried to be constructive and look at the evidence and possibilities within Ken's MRCA time-frames rather than just
rubbishing them because they don't suit. There is no doubt that in the Bronze Age and Iron Age that the main waves of influence across most of western Europe came from the west-central European area later associated with the Celts. The problem is not that influences were not detected. Its just that the exotic influences coming from that core were always quickly localised and mixed with other local aspects indicating local continuity. Hence archaeologists have in the last 20 years in particular emphasised the local continuity and seen the exotica as high status fashion items brought in by local elites. If the MRCA dating is correct then we may need to rethink this and see the exotic influences as 2nd generation evidence of incoming elites who initially ruled over local populations before demographically squeezing them out over subsequent centuries. This would turn the clock back 2 or 3 decades in terms of archaeological thinking but its not totally
impossible.

Here are a few questions-
Where did the MRCA of the R1b folk around 1600BC or the S116 ancestor a little later live? I feel its got to be somewhere in the traditional Celtic core in west-central Europe centred on southern Germany. This was the area that was most powerfully influential on western Europe at that date and for well over a millenia afterwards.

Ken are you going to do a MRCA date for generic western R1b1c* against the other clades. Any plans to look at R1b1b6?

Alan

This thread: