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From: Alan R <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 12:07:38 +0000 (GMT)


The way I look at it is that there were clearly dense populations throughout western Europe that had been established for millenia by 1600BC. That is well established. By then there were some very powerful elites throughout western Europe. In some way or other the later Bronze Age R1b European lineages must have been displaced or more likely spread in smaller numbers and then slowly out-bred the original inhabitants over many generations, probably many centuries. Now that implies sustained reproductive advantage for these newcomers over a very long period and across many different environments. In this period we are essentially talking about arranged or certainly economic/alliance based marriages. I feel the only way to have a sustained reproductive advantage over a period of many centuries required to cause the apparent replacement is if the lineage and its various offshoots were either in a consistently advantageous socio-economic position (i.e
an elite) or they had some sort of invisible genetic reproductive advantage. I read the R1b and mtDNA H post with interest. Will sit on the fence for now. Its absolutely incredible how this could utterly turn everything upside down and in many ways revert to the idea of many of us being descendants of late arriving European Celts, a position rejected a few decades ago by most.

It is an interesting point to wonder where the residence of this MRCA of all the western R1b was c. 1600BC or a little later. The modern distribution is one clue and the archaeological record for the centuries after that MRCA date is another. The best candidate cultural horizon for the MRCA in Europe is probably the Urnfield period which was clearly a period of sudden wide diffusion of some sort across central Europe and into France and even eastern Spain. There was also a less rich version in the Germanic area to the north. However, there is no Urnfield horizon in Britain and Ireland and if a late R1b spread happened there it is a lot less visible with no smoking gun horizon. The archaeology of these islands suggests more influence on local culture (mainly seen on metal work) during the continental Urnfield periods and its successor Hallstatt and La Tene Iron Age cultures.. So, if the late R1b diffusion theory is correct then its only dimly echoed
in the archaeological record of Britain and especially Ireland. It may partly be down to being islands and culture quickly becoming localised and idiosyncratic. The same problem exists for Neolithic where there clearly has to have been an input from Europe and there is a general similarity of culture across the sea but its still hard to pinpoint points of origin. In other words the first generation of settlers is missing and we can only see the 2nd or 3rd generation when the settlers have sort of gone native.

All that said, if Kens right its pretty depressing in terms of archaeology's ability to distinguish between cultural and population movements, something the profession actually thought it was getting much better at as the volume of evidence increased. It essentially would mean a return to the possibility that every bit of foreign influence on a piece of metalwork could be a 3rd generation echo of an invisible migration..

Alan





----- Original Message ----
From: Elizabeth O'Donoghue <>
To: Alan R <>;
Sent: Wednesday, 21 May, 2008 11:10:01 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff

Alan, you finally asked the question that was in my mind as I was reading
through the thread - 'Where did the MRCA of the R1b folk around 1600BC or
the S116 ancestor a little later live?'

Your earlier post made it seem that they had to come from somewhere outside
into the areas in which they are now most prevalent. It would seem logical
that the MRCA actually lived in the neighborhood.

You also commented that 'Most people agree that reproductive advantage lay
with the elites.' I've never considered this to be a given. The MRCA could
have been a trader, leaving seed behind as he journeyed about...his sons
could have followed in their father's footsteps. They might not have been
elites at all. Finding a lot of aDNA with S21/S28 in elite burials in
addition to absence of other subclades would help your hypothesis, but is
that likely?

While accept David's extensive research supporting his connection of S28 to
the La Tene Celts, it's not as if they were the only Celts. They're still a
minority population, at least with the amount of testing currently done to
indicate so. Time, and more testing, will help us no doubt.

Elizabeth

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