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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-05 > 1211381463


From: Alan R <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 14:51:03 +0000 (GMT)


Elizabeth said
Alan, why must the concept be a replacement of original inhabitants? In
1600BC, wouldn't the majority of the population already *be* R1b? Why must
there be 'late arriving European Celts' from somewhere else? Why couldn't
the inhabitants of Western Europe be mainly the R1b from the Iberian
refugium mixed with the hg I from further east?

my reply

Ken's MRCA dating does demand replacement. It seems to imply almost all the sampled western European R1b people had a common ancestor c. 1600BC or later (later Bronze Age). If that is true then all present R1b people in western Europe stem from a single ancestor living after 1600BC likely somewhere in western or west-central Europe judging by distribution. In that scenario even if the pre-1600BC populations included some sort of earlier R1b population pre-1600BC, the present population are overwhelmingly not descended from it. They are specifically descended from a common ancestor in the late Bronze Age. Kens dating seems to imply that all S116+ R1b and also S21 post-dates 1600BC so that would include almost all of the R1b1c* folk too. Clearly there had to be pre-1600BC R1b people somewhere in western or central Europe for this MRCA to emerge from. How widespread this pre-MRCA R1b population was is impossible to say. I would suppose that they
could today be represented by S116-ve S21-ve R1b but very little has been found in the west as far as I understand,

I don't know if I believe this late MRCA dating myself but I am just running with the scenario as if it were proven.to test it against archaeological evidence. I must admit the late Bronze Age MRCA does not fit at all easily with the conclusions that 99% of modern archaeologists would come to.

Alan

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