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From: Alan R <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] S21/S28 Split+m223 stuff
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 15:44:51 +0000 (GMT)


I am ignoring the actual suggested dating and concentrating on the implications of the new suggested relative seniority of R1b clades. For almost all archaeological attested scenarios I can think of, the idea that a predominantly west-central R1b clade is older than a predominantly northern one makes far more sense. So I am relieved to hear that S28 may be older than S21. It required a lot of special pleading to explain the scenario that the reverse was the case as was commonly previously thought. Whatever disagreement there is about the the absolute period (and I am hugely sceptical of the actual dates suggested), knowing the relative seniority of one clade over another is still a very helpful step. The priority of west-central Europe over the north is an archaeological fact:

1. During the post LGM expansion.
2. During the spread of Neolithic culture/economy/people
3, More hazily the west-central area was a womb of ideas and progress throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages compared to the rather insular north. Its much less clear what (if hardly any) gene flow followed these influences.

I cant think of any reverse cases of major north-south cultural flow until the end of the Roman empire. The proto-Germanic areas were very much isolated and far behind the Celts technologically and in terms of social complexity from the ealry Bronze Age until the Roman period when they started to get the military upper hand,

If an archaeological phase is to be tied to this demographic event (the sudden burst of several prolific lineages) then I think it is critical to work out the sequencing of the break off of the far western clades too. Are they older or younger than S28? In some ways it is no surprised that a northern clade is younger than a west-central ones. However that leaves me wondering what the relative seniority between west-central S28 and the western/Atlantic clades are. That might tell us the direction of the spread and indeed suggest the original location of the MRCA of all the western R1b. Nothing would surprise me now after the revelations of recent weeks.

Alan

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